10k Philosophy challenge

[henry quirk]

we already know beyond reasonable doubt today that it's incorrect

A person has an absolute claim on, an inalienable right to, his, and no one's else's, life, liberty, and property.

Morality, then, is when a person recognizes and respects another's absolute claim, his natural right, to his own life, liberty, and property. In that recognizing and respecting one is disinclined to murder, rape, enslave, steal from, and defraud the other. And where one is not disinclined, where he decides to treat the other as commodity, he may find the other exercising his right to self-defense.

And it works no matter how you feel about the other guy. You don't have to like him or empathize with him to get that it's wrong to use him (his life, his liberty, his property) as your possession.

Seems objective and universal to me.

[Atla]

we already know beyond reasonable doubt today that it's incorrect

A person has an absolute claim on, an inalienable right to, his, and no one's else's, life, liberty, and property.

Morality, then, is when a person recognizes and respects another's absolute claim, his natural right, to his own life, liberty, and property. In that recognizing and respecting one is disinclined to murder, rape, enslave, steal from, and defraud the other. And where one is not disinclined, where he decides to treat the other as commodity, he may find the other exercising his right to self-defense.

And it works no matter how you feel about the other guy. You don't have to like him or empathize with him to get that it's wrong to use him (his life, his liberty, his property) as your possession.

Seems objective and universal to me.

Eh.. rights are invented by humans.

[henry quirk]

Eh.. rights are invented by humans.

Legal rights, sure. Natural right/law, no, we recognize it, we don't invent it.

And: legal rights are only worthwhile as they correspond with natural right. A man-made law that prohibits theft is moral while one that promotes theft is immoral.

[Atla]

Eh.. rights are invented by humans.

Legal rights, sure. Natural right/law, no, we recognize it, we don't invent it.

There are no natural rights. What you call natural rights were also invented by humans.

[henry quirk]

What you call natural rights were also invented by humans.

No. Every person, including you, knows his life, liberty, and property are his and is properly outraged when violated. Even the murderer, rapist, slaver, thief, and defrauder knows this. It's a universal intuition.

We didn't invent it: we recognize it about ourselves and extend that recognition to our fellows.

That's morality.

[Atla]

What you call natural rights were also invented by humans.

No. Every person, including you, knows his life, liberty, and property are his and is properly outraged when violated. Even the murderer, rapist, slaver, thief, and defrauder knows this. It's a universal intuition.

We didn't invent it: we recognize about ourselves and extend that recognition to our fellows.

People being outraged when violated doesn't mean that therefore there are natural rights.

[henry quirk]

People being outraged when violated doesn't mean that therefore there are natural rights.

When it's universal, yeah, it's a damned good evidence for natural rights and objective morality.

Your lil empathy thing: not universal, not worth spit.

[Atla]

People being outraged when violated doesn't mean that therefore there are natural rights.

When it's universal, yeah, it's a damned good evidence for natural rights and objective morality.

Your lil empathy thing: not universal, not worth spit.

It's not universal at all, it's just a general characteristic of lifeforms. Lifeforms respond negatively to pain. Just as lifeforms have to eat and grow and metabolize. Nowhere do these imply universal rights, obviously.

[henry quirk]

Lifeforms respond negatively to pain

Who said diddly about pain?

You get pickpocketed. You aren't in pain. What you are is morally outraged. What's yours has been taken from you. You've been wronged.

Thing is: anyone, anywhere, any when, who is pickpocketed is morally outraged. Even the pickpockets themselves are morally outraged when it happens to them.

No one in the history of the world has every said, no one today sez, and no one tomorrow will ever say hey, it was right that I was stolen from and I'm jake with it.

If natural rights were just some biological convention or cultural codification then you'd expect at least some portion of any population to be okay with theft (or murder, or rape, or slavery, or fraud). But despite all manner of different outlooks and religions and states and notions about everything, the one universal is this deep in the bone intuition every person has: my life, my liberty, my property are mine.

We don't make it up: we recognize it.

[Atla]

Lifeforms respond negatively to pain

Who said diddly about pain?

You get pickpocketed. You aren't in pain. What you are is morally outraged. What's yours has been taken from you. You've been wronged.

Thing is: anyone, anywhere, any when, who is pickpocketed is morally outraged. Even the pickpockets themselves are morally outraged when it happens to them.

No one in the history of the world has every said, no one today sez, and no one tomorrow will ever say hey, it was right that I was stolen from and I'm jake with it.

If natural rights were just some biological convention or cultural codification then you'd expect at least some portion of any population to be okay with theft (or murder, or rape, or slavery, or fraud). But despite all manner of different outlooks and religions and states and notions about everything, the one universal is this deep in the bone intuition every person has: my life, my liberty, my property are mine.

We don't make it up: we recognize it.

Nonsense. Moral outrage is a form of pain. But for example if you steal from IC, he won't be morally outraged because he can't be. Only those can be morally outraged who have a functioning conscience. He will probably still be angry with you though, and probably feel some pain due to the loss of his possession, which are still negative reactions.

[henry quirk]

Poppycock. Even if you're right about Mannie (and you're not), he would still be *morally outraged...just like you....just like me...just like any person.

*not a form of pain

[Atla]

Poppycock. Even if you're right about Mannie (and you're not), he would still be *morally outraged...just like you....just like me...just like any person.

*not a form of pain

Bollocks. About 4% of humans can't experience morality. Your choice if you want to view them as persons or not.

[henry quirk]

Bollocks. About 4% of humans can't experience morality. Your choice if you want to view them as persons or not.

Manure. Every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his alone. A significant portion of people -- a damned sight higher than 4% -- refuse to recognize other folks have the same moral claim. And becuz they don't or won't they murder, rape, slave, steal, and defraud. It's not that they don't experience morality. They're immoral. They're bad people.

[Atla]

Bollocks. About 4% of humans can't experience morality. Your choice if you want to view them as persons or not.

Manure. Every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his alone. A significant portion of people -- a damned sight higher than 4% -- refuse to recognize other folks have the same moral claim. And becuz they don't or won't they murder, rape, slave, steal, and defraud. It's not that they don't experience morality. They're immoral. They're bad people.

No, about 4% are neither moral nor immoral, but simply amoral. Look it up if you want.

Also, every time you say "Every person knows X" you're just projecting to no end.

[henry quirk]

Look it up if you want.

It's a crap figure foisted up by reductionists. They believe man is just meat so their assessments reflect that. But, please, offer a citation.

every time you say "Every person knows X" you're just projecting to no end.

No. I'm stating what's obvious. Everyone -- including you -- knows his life, liberty, and property is his alone.