How could Jesus be abandoned?

[seeds]

He said: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one!?

Because the notion of the Trinity is nonsense, of which Islam came along later to refute in order to set the Abrahamic religion back on the right path of true Monotheism.

So you think that Jesus lied that He is God or He and God are one?

Well, seeing how the words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels were allegedly written somewhere between 40 and 100 years after his death, then who can say with absolute certainty what he actually said?

Another puzzling aspect of the Christian narrative is that if it is proposed that God gave (sacrificed) his only begotten son to die for the sins of man,...

...then what did God actually sacrifice if, in fact, he knew all along that Jesus wasn't really going to die and was simply going to return to him and his heavenly kingdom after the ordeal was over?

It would seem that God simply set Jesus up to receive a really nasty whoopin' (thanks dad), but not actual death.

The point is that there was no actual "sacrifice" in the purest sense of the word.

That is a relevant question: What is the sacrifice?

Or more importantly, according to Christianity, the only reason that Jesus was sacrificed in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called the "Garden of Eden") the so-called “fall of man” took place,...

...thus, Jesus was sacrificed in order to redeem humanity from that fallen state of being.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(e.g., a talking snake, along with a magical tree and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for a sacrifice is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then there was no need for Jesus to be sacrificed,...

(correction, no need for Jesus to receive a nasty whoopin' and then return to heaven because he did not actually die [was not "sacrificed"] in any real and permanent sense)

...right?
_______

[promethean75]

Damn u really gotta back up on that essay to know what's going on at that point... but I can't get a link that is 'spot specific' on the essay so here's the relevant part way before that.

"These concepts, inherited from Traditional Thought, were aimed at 'justifying' and rationalising the consolidation and reproduction of ruling-class power. Hence, if the state 'reflects' the underlying 'rational', or 'objective' order of reality (as Traditional Theorists have almost invariably maintained -- albeit modified in line with each subsequent Mode of Production, to suit the ideological priorities of contemporaneous ruling elites), then any opposition to it could be waved aside as "irrational", against "the natural order", or even contrary to "the divine plan", and hence ultimately futile. The moral order of the state was thus inter-twined with the "rational order" of reality. Indeed, the ethical condition of the soul and the structure of the State weren't just accidentally linked (for example, in Plato's thought, or in Ancient India and China); this was constitutive of both the entire cosmos and rightful governance on earth. The same was true of the other 'rational principles', derived from thought alone by countless generations of ruling-class hacks, albeit expressed in a different idiom as local economic, political and social conditions required."

[bahman]

Here B check this out >>> https://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/Rest_ ... etaphysics

Becuz the Roman's paganism was being challenged by a new religion that would later work in their favor once they converted. But u couldn't know that in advance quite yet at the time of J's persecution. Christianity was a happy accident for Rome (for a while).

Ok, I see what you mean.

[bahman]

Because the notion of the Trinity is nonsense, of which Islam came along later to refute in order to set the Abrahamic religion back on the right path of true Monotheism.

So you think that Jesus lied that He is God or He and God are one?

Well, seeing how the words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels were allegedly written somewhere between 40 and 100 years after his death, then who can say with absolute certainty what he actually said?

Another puzzling aspect of the Christian narrative is that if it is proposed that God gave (sacrificed) his only begotten son to die for the sins of man,...

...then what did God actually sacrifice if, in fact, he knew all along that Jesus wasn't really going to die and was simply going to return to him and his heavenly kingdom after the ordeal was over?

It would seem that God simply set Jesus up to receive a really nasty whoopin' (thanks dad), but not actual death.

The point is that there was no actual "sacrifice" in the purest sense of the word.

That is a relevant question: What is the sacrifice?

Or more importantly, according to Christianity, the only reason that Jesus was sacrificed in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called the "Garden of Eden") the so-called “fall of man” took place,...

...thus, Jesus was sacrificed in order to redeem humanity from that fallen state of being.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(e.g., a talking snake, along with a magical tree and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for a sacrifice is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then there was no need for Jesus to be sacrificed,...

(correction, no need for Jesus to receive a nasty whoopin' and then return to heaven because he did not actually die [was not "sacrificed"] in any real and permanent sense)

...right?
_______

I agree with what you said.

[godelian]

He said: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one!?

Jeshu is not a proper name. It means "heretic".

The Rabbis brought two Jeshu in front of the Roman governor. Jeshu bar Abbah, i.e. the son of an unknown father (=Christ), was released. It is the other Jeshu who was crucified by the Romans.

[LuckyR]

Uummm... because that's what some dude wrote down.

Why does Hamlet say "to be or not to be..."?

So you are saying that Jesus is just a story written down and He was not real?

"Just a story"? No, not quite. Most modern scholars believe Jesus existed as a human on planet Earth. True, there's no credible direct evidence of this, but I'm will to stipulate this as a given "fact", for discussion purposes.

Just as in Danish antiquity there likely were no ancient princes specifically named Hamlet, but there were almost definitely princes with mommy issues.

Regardless of their individual personal existance, what we currently appreciate about them stem from writings from humans who were not them. That's what I'm saying.

[Iwannaplato]

He said: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one!?

Well, who knows, but your missing a possible point.

Jesus is quote Psalm 22, which he certainly knew and his followers would likely know. Psalm 22 begins with despair but leads to a positive message. So, he is eliciting the whole Psalm, even in his despair. Jesus was quoting the opening line of Psalm 22, which is a messianic psalm attributed to King David. In Psalm 22, David describes an unbearable situation where enemies mock him, yet he trusts in the Lord for rescue.
So, it parallels Jesus' situation where he has been mocked and more by people who challenged God's love (similar to Psalm 22:6-8). There was the division of Jesus’ garments by casting lots (similar to Psalm 22:18). The psalm also expresses dependence on God and gratitude for His grace (Psalm 22:3-5, 9-11, 19-31), which perhaps is the actual message when Jesus quotes P 22.

The forsaking has to do with God leaving Jesus alone (that part of himself) so that he actually experiences the full terror, the human condition terror of it seeming like one is abandoned by God. He accepted this part of the process in Gethesmene

Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

Psalm 22

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4
In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5
To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7
All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8
“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9
Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10
From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11
Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12
Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13
Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15
My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16
Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19
But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20
Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22
I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25
From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26
The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27
All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28
for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

I'm not a Christian, but this is certainly one of the main takes on that situation. The whole point was for God to experience, as Jesus, what it was like to be a mere human. One of the feelings is that of facing horrible things without a loving God present - something most of us have had the experience of, whatever our beliefs. If your are going to understand the human condition fully as a deity, well, that's part of it. Maybe the human gets confidence after a while, but it seems part and parcel of being human.

[bahman]

He said: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one!?

Jeshu is not a proper name. It means "heretic".

The Rabbis brought two Jeshu in front of the Roman governor. Jeshu bar Abbah, i.e. the son of an unknown father (=Christ), was released. It is the other Jeshu who was crucified by the Romans.

Oh, so you are saying that Jesus Christ was not crucified. How could you justify that?

[bahman]

Uummm... because that's what some dude wrote down.

Why does Hamlet say "to be or not to be..."?

So you are saying that Jesus is just a story written down and He was not real?

"Just a story"? No, not quite. Most modern scholars believe Jesus existed as a human on planet Earth. True, there's no credible direct evidence of this, but I'm will to stipulate this as a given "fact", for discussion purposes.

Just as in Danish antiquity there likely were no ancient princes specifically named Hamlet, but there were almost definitely princes with mommy issues.

Regardless of their individual personal existance, what we currently appreciate about them stem from writings from humans who were not them. That's what I'm saying.

Ok, thanks for the elaboration.

[bahman]

He said: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one!?

Well, who knows, but your missing a possible point.

Jesus is quote Psalm 22, which he certainly knew and his followers would likely know. Psalm 22 begins with despair but leads to a positive message. So, he is eliciting the whole Psalm, even in his despair. Jesus was quoting the opening line of Psalm 22, which is a messianic psalm attributed to King David. In Psalm 22, David describes an unbearable situation where enemies mock him, yet he trusts in the Lord for rescue.
So, it parallels Jesus' situation where he has been mocked and more by people who challenged God's love (similar to Psalm 22:6-8). There was the division of Jesus’ garments by casting lots (similar to Psalm 22:18). The psalm also expresses dependence on God and gratitude for His grace (Psalm 22:3-5, 9-11, 19-31), which perhaps is the actual message when Jesus quotes P 22.

The forsaking has to do with God leaving Jesus alone (that part of himself) so that he actually experiences the full terror, the human condition terror of it seeming like one is abandoned by God. He accepted this part of the process in Gethesmene

Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

Psalm 22

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4
In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5
To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6
But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7
All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8
“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9
Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10
From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11
Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12
Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13
Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14
I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15
My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16
Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18
They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19
But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20
Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22
I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23
You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25
From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26
The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27
All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28
for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

I'm not a Christian, but this is certainly one of the main takes on that situation. The whole point was for God to experience, as Jesus, what it was like to be a mere human. One of the feelings is that of facing horrible things without a loving God present - something most of us have had the experience of, whatever our beliefs. If your are going to understand the human condition fully as a deity, well, that's part of it. Maybe the human gets confidence after a while, but it seems part and parcel of being human.

I understand that human beings can suffer. That is however not my point. My problem is with the concept of the Trinity which claims that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are one.

[Iwannaplato]

I understand that human beings can suffer. That is however not my point. My problem is with the concept of the Trinity which claims that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are one.

I would have assumed you understood human beings can suffer, so nothing above was meant to inform you of that. I was trying to recount one Christian view on why Jesus seems to be or is suffering on the cross, given that Jesus is supposed to be God. There are a lot of interpretations of who/what Jesus is. I happen to think the Trinity, apart from have no clear female deity, is a silly conception of God. I can sort of get the Idea of God splitting a piece of himself off and restricting, in a sense, its powers, so that prior to reintegration, the fully deity gets a better sense of the life of humans.

I've never liked hte born in debt and guilt, Jesus died for your sins thing.

That said, the particular speech is not just something that Jesus said in the moment, spontaneously. Or better put that statement has a Jewish history. It is a quite, even if it popped out of his mouth directly caused by the pain. So, it may or may not carry with it the significance of the rest of Psalm 22 where it comes from, give that Jesus was a kind of rabbi and was considered and expert on the Pentateuch, and as a messiah, he would, then, if that's the case, fulfill the prophecies of those books. Is he also an avatar, fragment of God, that aspect that manifested and went through life as a human. Certainly many Christians believe this.

The connection to Psalm 22 direcly goes at your question

How could He be abandoned if He and God are one?

Since 'abandoned' is affected by this interpretation and then also explained as necessary for that aspect of the deity to fully understand human nature. Not that you do, you're already human, But Jesus having been a part of God, until he incarnated as human, would have no experience of being abandoned.

Now can a deity split itself up and have separate experiences? I can't rule it out.

The holy spirit seems like a completely random ad hoc made up after the fact interpretation.

And where is the loving mother, of the daughter of God for that matter.

Where on earth do we find any human or animal that didn't have a mother. There are, in rare cases, animals that don't have a father. And there seems to have been one human, at least, who was born without a fathers genetic input

a remarkable case of what is often referred to as a “virgin birth” or parthenogenesis in humans. In 1995, British geneticists reported the case of a young boy whose body was derived in part from an unfertilized egg. This boy, known as FD, had mild learning difficulties and asymmetric facial features but otherwise seemed healthy. His white blood cells contained two X chromosomes (typical of females), yet they lacked any Y chromosome material. Surprisingly, his skin had the normal X and Y chromosomes of a typical male. The researchers believe that FD’s development began when an unfertilized egg self-activated and started dividing, resulting in this unique mixture of genetics1. While such cases are extremely rare, they provide valuable insights into human development and evolution.

So, it is sexist at a foundational level to leave Mother out of the deity (ies). One aspect of the Trinity that is toxic in my view, though the Holy Spirit is sexually neutral, that just ain't enough.

[bahman]

I understand that human beings can suffer. That is however not my point. My problem is with the concept of the Trinity which claims that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are one.

I would have assumed you understood human beings can suffer, so nothing above was meant to inform you of that. I was trying to recount one Christian view on why Jesus seems to be or is suffering on the cross, given that Jesus is supposed to be God. There are a lot of interpretations of who/what Jesus is. I happen to think the Trinity, apart from have no clear female deity, is a silly conception of God. I can sort of get the Idea of God splitting a piece of himself off and restricting, in a sense, its powers, so that prior to reintegration, the fully deity gets a better sense of the life of humans.

I've never liked hte born in debt and guilt, Jesus died for your sins thing.

That said, the particular speech is not just something that Jesus said in the moment, spontaneously. Or better put that statement has a Jewish history. It is a quite, even if it popped out of his mouth directly caused by the pain. So, it may or may not carry with it the significance of the rest of Psalm 22 where it comes from, give that Jesus was a kind of rabbi and was considered and expert on the Pentateuch, and as a messiah, he would, then, if that's the case, fulfill the prophecies of those books. Is he also an avatar, fragment of God, that aspect that manifested and went through life as a human. Certainly many Christians believe this.

The connection to Psalm 22 direcly goes at your question

How could He be abandoned if He and God are one?

Since 'abandoned' is affected by this interpretation and then also explained as necessary for that aspect of the deity to fully understand human nature. Not that you do, you're already human, But Jesus having been a part of God, until he incarnated as human, would have no experience of being abandoned.

Now can a deity split itself up and have separate experiences? I can't rule it out.

The holy spirit seems like a completely random ad hoc made up after the fact interpretation.

And where is the loving mother, of the daughter of God for that matter.

Where on earth do we find any human or animal that didn't have a mother. There are, in rare cases, animals that don't have a father. And there seems to have been one human, at least, who was born without a fathers genetic input

a remarkable case of what is often referred to as a “virgin birth” or parthenogenesis in humans. In 1995, British geneticists reported the case of a young boy whose body was derived in part from an unfertilized egg. This boy, known as FD, had mild learning difficulties and asymmetric facial features but otherwise seemed healthy. His white blood cells contained two X chromosomes (typical of females), yet they lacked any Y chromosome material. Surprisingly, his skin had the normal X and Y chromosomes of a typical male. The researchers believe that FD’s development began when an unfertilized egg self-activated and started dividing, resulting in this unique mixture of genetics1. While such cases are extremely rare, they provide valuable insights into human development and evolution.

So, it is sexist at a foundational level to leave Mother out of the deity (ies). One aspect of the Trinity that is toxic in my view, though the Holy Spirit is sexually neutral, that just ain't enough.

I understand what you are saying. My point is that Jesus felt that He and God are one in a period of His life before the crucification. He however felt the absence of God on the cross. So we are dealing with a problem here.

[Iwannaplato]

So, it is sexist at a foundational level to leave Mother out of the deity (ies). One aspect of the Trinity that is toxic in my view, though the Holy Spirit is sexually neutral, that just ain't enough.

I understand what you are saying. My point is that Jesus felt that He and God are one in a period of His life before the crucification. He however felt the absence of God on the cross. So we are dealing with a problem here.
[/quote]I think it is actually unclear what Jesus felt he and God were to each other. But part of the idea is that God was going to put that cup to his lips. And that was not just the physical torture but the full experience of not having God with him. This isn't so different from Krishna, for example, who was a kind of avatar for Vishnu but in some sense was separated from divitity and went through more human and limited suffering and also joys. Not that this demonstrate that this can actually happen and so it happened with Jesus also. On the other once we have unbelievable power and knowledge in a deity, even what some consider omni versions of these things, so why couldn't a deity allow a part of itself, to undergo a period of being limited and separated only to rejoin later.

HOw do we rules out this possibility and on what grounds?

[bahman]

I think it is actually unclear what Jesus felt he and God were to each other. But part of the idea is that God was going to put that cup to his lips. And that was not just the physical torture but the full experience of not having God with him. This isn't so different from Krishna, for example, who was a kind of avatar for Vishnu but in some sense was separated from divitity and went through more human and limited suffering and also joys. Not that this demonstrate that this can actually happen and so it happened with Jesus also. On the other once we have unbelievable power and knowledge in a deity, even what some consider omni versions of these things, so why couldn't a deity allow a part of itself, to undergo a period of being limited and separated only to rejoin later.

HOw do we rules out this possibility and on what grounds?

I am not denying that Jesus cannot endure pain. Jesus explicitly said that He and Fater are one: John 10:30-38. The fact that He felt abandoned when He was on the cross means that Father was present to Him as He was present to Father before His Crucifixion.

[Iwannaplato]

I am not denying that Jesus cannot endure pain.

Including the pain of separation or abandonment. All the pains of humans. At least, this is a possible interpretation of the NT.

Jesus explicitly said that He and Fater are one: John 10:30-38.

Sure, but what does that mean.? Could it mean they are one in purpose? Could it mean that we all one with God (and many parts of HInduism suggest)? He doesn't say 'I am God'. The verb is plural. Is he in a state available to all? Is he a part of God? Is he something that God created, that is had a beginning, so is now added to God. Why is he the Son, if he is the FAther? It's open to many interpretations.

The fact that He felt abandoned when He was on the cross means that Father was present to Him as He was present to Father before His Crucifixion.

Yes, to be forsaken implies a connnection is lost, in the time.