They see gender pay gap as a problem but ...

[godelian]

That's not the reason for wars. Nor does God's law allow rape, murder, kidnapping, torture, bombing, or any other such thing.

God allows war just like God allows the cattle's mating season. Everything that you mention is part of war.

Well, that might be true. But as you and I probably agree, much of mankind's nature is evil, and should be resisted rather than excused. War is an evil, beyond question, and one of the worst evils, really, since it is the source of so many other evils.

That point of view is naive and not realistic. Again, it is just Christian delulu.

Mankind's nature is capable of both good and evil.

The point of Islam and traditional Judaism seems only to be to have a set of rules to follow.

Moral rules are an essential part of religion. Moral rules are not optional. The Christian view of just calling these rules a curse, is not productive.

The purpose of Christ was to go beyond that, and change the human heart.

Again, that view is delulu.

if that's so, then what's more necessary than that both men and women should be transformed into better people?

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Albert Einstein

Men and especially women are delulu nowadays. The solution is certainly not some more delulu propaganda.

Mohammed said Christ is a true prophet.
Mohammed did not follow this true prophet.
What does that tell you about Mohammed?

There have been lots of prophets. Ezekiel and Jeremiah were prophets too. Still, you won't find anybody using what they said as an argument in a jurisprudential ruling, because none of what they said, constitutes law. Same for Christ.

Only two prophets were chosen to transmit a copy of the law: Moses and Muhammed.

But really, let's not have any more nonsense about Torah or the Gospels being the same as Koran.

I have never said that. The Torah is a lawbook. So, is the Quran. The Gospels are not.

Jesus Christ already spoke quite clearly concerning this fact. And He taught us, "Love your enemies, and pray for those who abuse you."

Yes, of course. The executioner also prays for the criminal that he executes. Furthermore, the criminal will still get a funeral.
Your interpretation, however, is a bit delulu.

He knew it, we know it, and it's why we Christians give charity to all people -- those who are not Christians, those who are other religions ...

Muslims also give charity to non-Muslims.
Of course, the one giving charity must give priority to relatives before giving to strangers.

Submission, and particularly forcible compulsion, is simply not enough. It does not change the heart.

In modern English, "Islam" means "compliance" and not "submission". Islam invites its believers to have self-discipline and to attempt to comply with God's law. It is just an invitation. You don't need to do it, if you don't want to.
Concerning "change the heart", I am not interested in propaganda that sound naive or even delulu.

[Immanuel Can]

That's not the reason for wars. Nor does God's law allow rape, murder, kidnapping, torture, bombing, or any other such thing.

God allows war

'
God also allows the West. God allows women to berate and divorce, taking the children and all the money. God allows all sorts of evil things that all sorts of men do.

What's your point, really? The fact that God allows things doesn't go one step in the direction of showing they're right.

Well, that might be true. But as you and I probably agree, much of mankind's nature is evil, and should be resisted rather than excused. War is an evil, beyond question, and one of the worst evils, really, since it is the source of so many other evils.

That point of view is naive and not realistic.

No, it's verifiable. Look at what war does...go look at Gaza, for example. Is it really okay with you?

The point of Islam and traditional Judaism seems only to be to have a set of rules to follow.

Moral rules are an essential part of religion.

Only part. They are perhaps all that Islam has to offer...but both Judaism and Christianity have much more than rules to offer.

The purpose of Christ was to go beyond that, and change the human heart.

Again, that view is delulu.

That view is Torah, actually. "Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart." (1 Sam. 16:7)

Why would you call the Torah "delusion," if you say you believe it?

if that's so, then what's more necessary than that both men and women should be transformed into better people?

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Albert Einstein

Exactly right! You've got it!

Replace one degenerate man with another degenerate man, and all you've got is another degenerate man in charge. What's necessary is not another creed, but another kind of man.

Mohammed said Christ is a true prophet.
Mohammed did not follow this true prophet.
What does that tell you about Mohammed?

There have been lots of prophets.

But here, we have only Mohammed and Christ. Listen to what Mohammed says, and ask why he then did not follow Christ.

He knew it, we know it, and it's why we Christians give charity to all people -- those who are not Christians, those who are other religions ...

Muslims also give charity to non-Muslims.

Really? It's so little that nobody even knows about it, apparently. I note that Islamic countries will not even accept refugees who are not their particular brand, as in the case of the Palestinians. It's the Islamic Egypt that's keeping them locked on the Israel border, Islamic Iran that's funding their war, and Islamic Qatar where their leaders are set up in wealth and ease while they feed their own children and civilians into the meat-grinder of war in Gaza, which they provoked.

So where is the "charity" in all that? It looks to the West to be totally barbaric.

Submission, and particularly forcible compulsion, is simply not enough. It does not change the heart.

In modern English, "Islam" means "compliance" and not "submission".

No, actually, it doesn't. Traditionally, it is translated "submission." You'll find that everywhere, and you'll see it in Islamic practice, as well. There is no concern for the mental condition of those subjugated; only their having been forced to knuckle under to Islamic authority.

But it would make no difference. Since "compliance" isn't better. It still means that the heart of the person is unaffected, and only their outward behaviour is forced into conformity with the ideology in question.

You may wish to keep saying this is all "delulu," as if that means anymore than "I don't want to think about it." But I don't believe it does. I understand, though, that it's very uncomfortable to think about the problems and faults inherent in Islam, and that it would feel "unsubmissive" even to reconsider a religion that depends on "submission". I get that.

But there are good reasons to rethinking it: and one of them is the fact that Torah and the Gospels are not at all what Mohammed said, and not at all in concert with his ethics. But since he claimed authority from them, there's no way to reconcile that: either both Mohammed and the Torah and Gospels were wrong, or just Mohammed was wrong. But either way, Mohammed was wrong.

Think carefully, and you'll see it.

[godelian]

God also allows the West. God allows women to berate and divorce, taking the children and all the money. God allows all sorts of evil things that all sorts of men do.

Yes, that is exactly why God allows war.

Look at what war does...go look at Gaza, for example. Is it really okay with you?

The war is not over at this point.

(1 Sam. 16:7)

That is not part of the Torah.

What's necessary is not another creed, but another kind of man.

The nature of mankind cannot be changed.
The very idea that it could be changed is delulu.

It's the Islamic Egypt that's keeping them locked on the Israel border

If Egypt allows Palestinians to cross the border, they would be complicit with Israel's ethnic cleansing.

Traditionally, it is translated "submission.

That doesn't match the true meaning in modern English, which is "compliance".
Furthermore, there is no "traditional" translation.
There are only "accurate" and "inaccurate" translations.

It still means that the heart of the person is unaffected, and only their outward behaviour is forced into conformity with the ideology in question.

I am not interested in delulu ideologies that supposedly "affect the heart of the person".
I consider all of that to be manipulative bullshit.

[Immanuel Can]

Look at what war does...go look at Gaza, for example. Is it really okay with you?

The war is not over at this point.

And what it's done, on both sides, is okay with you?

(1 Sam. 16:7)

That is not part of the Torah.

Actually, Jews use the word Torah to refer to all their Scriptures, not merely the first five books. But you can also find exactly the same idea in Genesis 6:5, Exodus 35:22, Deuteronomy 11:16, and 30:6...all of which are securely within the first five books of Torah. So the point, that God values heart obedience, not mere compliance or submission, is made over and over again.

What's necessary is not another creed, but another kind of man.

The nature of mankind cannot be changed.

You think the God who made man cannot fix what's wrong with his heart? Well, you really don't have much confidence in Him, do you? Does that even make sense, that you would believe God created man, but can't fix his nature?

It's the Islamic Egypt that's keeping them locked on the Israel border

If Egypt allows Palestinians to cross the border, they would be complicit with Israel's ethnic cleansing.

That sort of thinking is exactly why so many people have contempt for Islamists and regard them as barbaric.

What you're talking about is forcing the Palestinians to stay trapped in a war provoked and sustained by leaders who are in Iran or Qatar, so that afterward, you can say, "See? The Israelis are ethnic cleansing." For shame! Is there no love for Palestinians children in Islamic hearts? Those people are desperate to escape and save the lives of their children, and Islamists of Iran and Egypt are forcing them to stay and die in a war Hamas caused and perpetuates? And you have no word of condemnation for that?

[godelian]

Actually, Jews use the word Torah to refer to all their Scriptures, not merely the first five books.

Well, I meant by Torah only the books of Moses:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

In rabbinic literature, the word Torah denotes both the five books (תורה שבכתב "Torah that is written") and the Oral Torah (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is spoken"). It has also been used, however, to designate the entire Hebrew Bible.

I refer to the entire Jewish Bible as Tanakh:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible

The Hebrew Bible or Tanakh[a] (/tɑːˈnɑːx/;[1] Hebrew: תַּנַ״ךְ‎ Tanaḵ), also known in Hebrew as Miqra (/miːˈkrɑː/; Hebrew: מִקְרָא‎ Mīqrāʾ), is the canonical collection of Hebrew scriptures, comprising the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Ketuvim.

Only the Torah is law. The remainder of the Tanakh is not.

You think the God who made man cannot fix what's wrong with his heart?

God does not want to "fix" human nature, because that would create more problems than it solves. Again, you are trying to further some delulu views.

That sort of thinking is exactly why so many people have contempt for Islamists and regard them as barbaric.

This is my view, which is not even necessarily "Islamist", but simply geopolitical.

Israel would certainly love it that Egypt opened the Rafah border crossing in order for Israel to push the Palestinians into the desert.

But then again, if that happens, the outrage would lead to a general coalition in the Middle East against Israel, of which the very first military action would be to attack and destroy the entire American military presence in the Middle East.

Concerning the Islamists, they don't care what you think about them. You think that they are barbaric while I think that you are incorrigibly delulu.

Those people are desperate to escape and save the lives of their children, and Islamists of Iran and Egypt are forcing them to stay and die in a war Hamas caused and perpetuates?

A solution requires more patience.

We all know that the problem can only be solved by eradicating the American military presence in the Middle East. It will take quite a bit more time to achieve that. It also took decades to eradicate the American military presence in Afghanistan.

This war did not start just yesterday. It has been going on for decades. This war is also not finished yet. Before it ends, it will require an inordinate number of American dead bodies. That is inevitable.

American boots on the ground dying for the Jewish state. Wouldn't that be politically most interesting? I wonder how much support that situation would have in the USA?

By the way, the Russians are already present in Syria. Hence , neither side of the conflict had a nuclear advantage.

By the time the war in Palestine is over, it will almost surely have destroyed the West.

[Immanuel Can]

Only the Torah is law. The remainder of the Tanakh is not.

In your running away from the question, you have not run far enough.

For you can also find exactly the same idea in Genesis 6:5, Exodus 35:22, Deuteronomy 11:16, and 30:6...all of which are securely within the first five books of Torah. So they are all in the books you say you believe, and upon which, you think, Islam is founded.

Again: why do you think God does not care about men's hearts, when He says that's what's important to Him?

You think the God who made man cannot fix what's wrong with his heart?

God does not want to "fix" human nature, because that would create more problems than it solves.

Explain what "problems" would be created if human nature were reformed, please.

Israel would certainly love it that Egypt opened the Rafah border crossing in order for Israel to push the Palestinians into the desert.

Egypt is not "the desert." It's a wealthy Islamic nation. And if they won't take Palestinians, why doesn't Jordan take them, or Saudi, or the Emirates, or Iran...no Islamic nation seems to want to have any pity of them at all.

They don't love the Palestinians. They just hate Israel. That's not the same thing. So much for what Islam knows of "love thy neighbour," I guess.

Those people are desperate to escape and save the lives of their children, and Islamists of Iran and Egypt are forcing them to stay and die in a war Hamas caused and perpetuates?

A solution requires more patience.

How many Palestinian women and children do you wish to see die for your "patience"?

[godelian]

For you can also find exactly the same idea in Genesis 6:5, Exodus 35:22, Deuteronomy 11:16, and 30:6...all of which are securely within the first five books of Torah. So they are all in the books you say you believe, and upon which, you think, Islam is founded.

Islam is founded on the Quran, of which in turn large fragments are bi-interpretable with the Torah.

I would have to figure out from existing jurisprudential rulings how these sentences in the Torah relate to sentences in the Quran. That is a hell of a lot of work.

Again: why do you think God does not care about men's hearts, when He says that's what's important to Him?

Human nature is the way it is, because there are good survival-related reasons for that. God certainly did not make a mistake there.

I am not particularly fond of your vague delulu improvements to human nature, because it is a simpleton approach that will not solve any problem but only make things worse.

There is no simple solution for a complex problem. Believing otherwise is delulu.

Explain what "problems" would be created if human nature were reformed, please.

The very fact that you are even suggesting that it would be possible, points to the misguided belief in delulu ideologies.

Egypt is not "the desert." It's a wealthy Islamic nation.

Look carefully at the map. Gaza borders Sinai, which is a desert. Furthermore, only the narrow Nile valley and the rather small Nile delta around Alexandria are not desert in Egypt. Everything else is plain desert.

What's more, you must be confusing Egypt for some other country because Egypt is not rich at all.

They don't love the Palestinians. They just hate Israel. That's not the same thing.

You are too deeply invested in delulu ideologies to understand the political implications of the solution that you are suggesting.

How many Palestinian women and children do you wish to see die for your "patience"?

Every dead body is regrettable. Unfortunately, a solution to this conflict will require many more dead bodies. Of course, I wish that the parties in this conflict would keep the body count as low as possible.

But then again, I am not optimistic about achieving the geopolitical goals with just a small number of dead bodies. It may simply not be possible.

The same consideration applies to the war in Ukraine, of which the geopolitics will keep escalating the number of dead bodies. As long as both belligerents are willing and able to keep paying that price, the war will indeed continue.

The moral rules in Torah and Quran apply to individuals and not to groups of individuals or entire countries. Besides the laws of war, there is no morality in war. The number one rule is to stay alive. The second rule is to prevent the enemy from doing the same.

[Immanuel Can]

For you can also find exactly the same idea in Genesis 6:5, Exodus 35:22, Deuteronomy 11:16, and 30:6...all of which are securely within the first five books of Torah. So they are all in the books you say you believe, and upon which, you think, Islam is founded.

Islam is founded on the Quran, of which in turn large fragments are bi-interpretable with the Torah.

"Bi-interpretable"? The truth is that the Koran is contradicted by Torah, and by the Gospels, as you've seen. Koran 3:3 says, "It is He (God) Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’an) to you (Prophet Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).”

So Mohammed claimed that Torah and the Gospels were God-given truth. But as you can see, then Mohammed broke both. There can be only one logical conclusion: by Mohammed's own account, he sinned in that. It can be no other way.

Explain what "problems" would be created if human nature were reformed, please.

The very fact that you are even suggesting that it would be possible...

This isn't the answer to any question I asked above.

How many Palestinian women and children do you wish to see die for your "patience"?

Every dead body is regrettable. Unfortunately, a solution to this conflict will require many more dead bodies. Of course, I wish that the parties in this conflict would keep the body count as low as possible.

This is not true. It would be possible for Islamists to keep every man, woman and child in Gaza safe. But they do not want to, and they will not try. Because they want many dead Palestinians, so they can leverage that against Israel. We can all see that.

Well, perhaps I've got as many answers from you as I'm going to get. It certainly seems that way. Thanks for the chat, I guess: we don't agree, and I don't think we're likely to. But we can part civilly on that.

[godelian]

The truth is that the Koran is contradicted by Torah, and by the Gospels, as you've seen. Koran 3:3 says, "It is He (God) Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’an) to you (Prophet Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).”

Christ was never selected by God to transmit a new copy of God's law. That is why he never did.

On the contrary, Christ told his followers to stick to Mosaic law, which of course, they didn't do, after Paul the heresiarch so eloquently poisoned the well.

Since the Gospels are not law, and were never meant to be law, how could the Quran and the Gospels contradict each other in matters of law? The Gospels are simply not authoritative in matters of law.

There are only two prophets who were ever selected by God to transmit a copy of God's law: Moses (Torah) and Muhammad (Quran).

In matters of law, large fragments of these two versions correspond. Concerning the differences, I did not investigate them in detail, if only because they seem pretty much irrelevant to me.

You advocate for changing human nature based on a delusional interpretation of the Gospels.

I repeat, Christ was never appointed by God to reprogram human nature. We are supposed to stick to the original bio-programming as originally supplied by God.

[Immanuel Can]

The truth is that the Koran is contradicted by Torah, and by the Gospels, as you've seen. Koran 3:3 says, "It is He (God) Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’an) to you (Prophet Muhammad ) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).”

Christ was never selected by God to transmit a new copy of God's law. That is why he never did.

Nobody said He did. But you can see what He did do: He expanded and expounded that Law, making it much more full and deep than anything Moses ever did. You've read the Sermon on the Mount, you say...so I know you've seen it, and know that's true.

Since the Gospels are not law,

So you don't take them seriously, the way the Koran does?

There are only two prophets who were ever selected by God to transmit a copy of God's law: Moses (Torah) and Muhammad (Quran).

So Mohammed lied? He said that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God...and you say He was not? Are you accusing Mohammed of being wrong?

[godelian]

[But you can see what He did do: He expanded and expounded that Law, making it much more full and deep than anything Moses ever did.

Christ did not expand the law because that would amount to changing the law.

So you don't take them seriously, the way the Koran does?

The Quran insists that Christ encouraged his followers to keep the law, just like for example Eliah or Ezekiel did. They were appointed by God to encourage people to keep the law.

So Mohammed lied? He said that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God...and you say He was not? Are you accusing Mohammed of being wrong?

The vast majority of prophets, such as Christ, were appointed by God to encourage people to keep the law. Muhammad clearly told me truth about Christ. God sent Christ to encourage his followers to keep the law.

[promethean75]

Let those men of Orphalese who have love in their hearts and who seek salvation give their ear to the teachings of Almustafa the Beloved

[Immanuel Can]

[But you can see what He did do: He expanded and expounded that Law, making it much more full and deep than anything Moses ever did.

Christ did not expand the law because that would amount to changing the law.

No, it would amount to filling out the truth of what the Law had always been intended by God to imply. It would merely be pointing out, as Jesus did, that the Pharisees had had a very shallow view of what the Law required of them, and that REALLY keeping it would take much more than they were giving.

And it's all right there, in the Gospels that Mohammed praised.

So you don't take them seriously, the way the Koran does?

The Quran insists that Christ encouraged his followers to keep the law...

More than the mere letter of the Law; the spirit of the Law, as well.

So Mohammed lied? He said that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God...and you say He was not? Are you accusing Mohammed of being wrong?

Muhammad clearly told me truth about Christ.

Then why don't you believe Christ? Mohammed told you to.

[godelian]

It would merely be pointing out, as Jesus did, that the Pharisees had had a very shallow view of what the Law required of them, and that REALLY keeping it would take much more than they were giving.

I do not like to comment on the dis-functional relationship that existed between the Rabbis and Christ, if only, because I am not privy to all the details of their mutual animosity.

The Rabbis tried to manipulate the Roman governor into crucifying him, but since they eventually failed, it was merely an ugly attempt at doing something quite unbecoming.

More than the mere letter of the Law; the spirit of the Law, as well.

The law is not about reclassifying otherwise normal behavior into offenses.

Then why don't you believe Christ?

I believe that Christ was truthful and his advice commendable, just like I believe Eliah was, but I do not attach legal weight to their words.

Mohammed told you to.

Muhammad was merely transmitting on behalf of the Almighty who alone takes full responsibility for what is written in the Quran. Don't shoot the messenger!

[Immanuel Can]

It would merely be pointing out, as Jesus did, that the Pharisees had had a very shallow view of what the Law required of them, and that REALLY keeping it would take much more than they were giving.

I do not like to comment on the dis-functional relationship that existed between the Rabbis and Christ, if only, because I am not privy to all the details of their mutual animosity.

You could be. They were quite frank about what they had in mind, apparently.

But you really don't even need to. If you just read the Sermon on the Mount, you'd see the truth of what I'm saying.

More than the mere letter of the Law; the spirit of the Law, as well.

The law is not about reclassifying otherwise normal behavior into offenses.

Au contraire, that's exactly what it does. Why say, "You shall not commit murder," if normally, people don't like to murder? Why say, "You shall not commit adultery," if normal people never want to commit adultery? And why say, "A man who lusts commits adultery in his heart," if God has no care what goes on in a man's heart?

Then why don't you believe Christ?
Mohammed told you to.

Muhammad was merely transmitting on behalf of the Almighty who alone takes full responsibility for what is written in the Quran. Don't shoot the messenger!

Are your imams happy to know that you think Mohammed was merely a messenger, and worse, that in telling us that Jesus Christ was a true prophet, he got the message wrong? What would the imams advise Muslims to do with somebody who prophesied falsely in the name of Allah?

We know the answer, do we not?

So again: there's a choice. Believe what Mohammed said, in which case, believe what Christ said. Or disbelieve Christ, if you're fine with the cost, which is also having to say that Mohammed was a false prophet. What else can you do?

However, either way, Mohammed's going to turn out to be wrong; because he did not personally obey the teachings of Jesus Christ, whom Mohammed himself had declared a true prophet. So whatever else happens, you're going to have to "shoot" that "messenger." Sorry to say, but that's the conclusion a rational person is going to have to accept: Mohammed was either wrong to acclaim Jesus Christ a prophet, or wrong not to obey Allah's prophecy through the true prophet, Jesus. Or, you might suppose, wrong both ways. But what you're never going to be able to justify, then, is the belief that Mohammed himself was a true prophet.