Agreed. A tool is not moral or immoral.Notvacka wrote:I think the title of this topic contradicts itself. There simply is no way to view capitalism as a moral system. That does not mean that capitalism is necessarily bad, by the way, only that it's not a moral system. And it was never intended to be one.
Capitalism provides incentive for investment and promotes effective use of resources. It's a good economic engine. But it's a bad steering wheel. Capitalism needs to be tempered by moral values and regulated for the common good.
Capitalism as a moral system
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
I don't know if there's more around this quote but it sounds like a bait and switch to me. He's right that the banks are like a carburetor, and the economy is the engine. But an economy is not the same thing as "free market capitalism". You can have an economy and still have restrictions on trade. As I mentioned in the other thread, that's exactly what the U.S. and every other nation does. We are not actually practicing free market capitalism anywhere; every major nation has a "mixed economy", which is a mixture of capitalism and socialism.spike wrote:From an article in Philosophy Now by Frank S. Robinson entitled Capitalism & Human Values.
"First, free market capitalism has not failed. We have suffered from big mistakes and abuses in financial and credit institutions. The banks, investment houses, trading firms, and mortgage outfits perform a function within the larger system, facilitating flows of money. That’s analogous to your car’s carburetor: it’s needed to make the engine run, but it’s not the engine. The economy’s engine, the true heart of capitalism, is not Wall Street or the City: it’s the production of goods and services, rightly called ‘the real economy’."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
Mixed economy can work. Free market capitalism alone can not. The government made the decision to allow bankers free reign to commit crimes without punishment "for the good of capitalism", and when given that power, they preceded to immediately loot the nation, the economy, and their own corporations, causing a financial collapse that destroyed the lives of millions of people. They were only able to do this because the government gave them the freedom to do it. I'd say that this is a very good indication that giving too much "freedom" to the "free" market is a terrible idea, and that the libertarian fantasy that the market itself would somehow magically be morally responsible and do the right thing did indeed fail us.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
I would like to hear from others what system they think has developed moral and ethical standards — mutually beneficial and utilitarian, around the world more so than capitalism and its free market principles.
I am thinking how China has changes its morals and ethics to fit with the rest of the world. I am not saying that China has reached the moral and ethical standards of the more developed world but at least it's made concessions and complied to a number of them, more so as the years go by. It is improving its moral and ethical fiber so that it can continue to do business with the rest of the world.
China used to be a closed society. However, its acceptance of capitalism has opened it up. That in itself is a moral and ethical big step, becoming more open with people being free to own private property and travel. To keep capitalism alive and growing China has had to clean up its act in several ways.
Several years ago China had a SARS outbreak, a fatal respiratory disease that was very contagious. In the pasts, when China was a closed society, it would have covered up and hidden such a disease from the rest of the world, making things even worse for its citizens. But now that it has become integrated with the rest of the world through trade and commerce it has to be open and caring about such outbreaks. That China is now caring about the welfare of it citizens in this way I would say amounts to a great leap forward in its moral and ethical behavior, all brought about by, albeit in a perverse way, capitalism.
Other ways China is morally and ethically changing in order to fit better with the rest of the world is in its fight against corruption, making products saver so they don't poison or harm people, cutting down on child labor and improving its pollution standards.
I am thinking how China has changes its morals and ethics to fit with the rest of the world. I am not saying that China has reached the moral and ethical standards of the more developed world but at least it's made concessions and complied to a number of them, more so as the years go by. It is improving its moral and ethical fiber so that it can continue to do business with the rest of the world.
China used to be a closed society. However, its acceptance of capitalism has opened it up. That in itself is a moral and ethical big step, becoming more open with people being free to own private property and travel. To keep capitalism alive and growing China has had to clean up its act in several ways.
Several years ago China had a SARS outbreak, a fatal respiratory disease that was very contagious. In the pasts, when China was a closed society, it would have covered up and hidden such a disease from the rest of the world, making things even worse for its citizens. But now that it has become integrated with the rest of the world through trade and commerce it has to be open and caring about such outbreaks. That China is now caring about the welfare of it citizens in this way I would say amounts to a great leap forward in its moral and ethical behavior, all brought about by, albeit in a perverse way, capitalism.
Other ways China is morally and ethically changing in order to fit better with the rest of the world is in its fight against corruption, making products saver so they don't poison or harm people, cutting down on child labor and improving its pollution standards.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
There is so much wrong with that post I just don't know where to begin.
First, China considers itself communist, not capitalist. American economists sometimes consider it "state capitalism" which is a nice way of saying "Er... yeah... it's communist, but um... well, you know we're supposed to hate that, but China owns half our economy, so uh... it's just state capitalism. Yeah. Totally different." There are some differences from the USSR's version of Communism, but it's not all that different, and it's definitely more like the USSR was than it is like the US. In fact, American economists who want to talk about the USSR without using the scary word "communism" will sometimes refer to it as "state capitalism" as well.
Secondly, you're thinking correlation implies causation, where there's almost nothing at all to imply it. Even if China was a shining example of free market capitalism, that doesn't correlate with whether or not it would treat SARS. The dumbest part is that you're not even using an example, you're just assuming that back when China "was" communist (when did it change?) it would have lied but now that it is capitalist it didn't.
Third, your examples of what China is doing that is "moral", are ALL SOCIALISM. Capitalism loves child labor, zero work standards, and "corruption" is the entire point. There's no such thing as "corruption" in a total free market system, the word doesn't really make sense there; because the whole point is to exploit capital for profit. Laws against child labor, laws to enforce livable work environments, and laws to curtail corporations' abilities to lie to consumers are all considered SOCIALIST. They are usually the domain of unions, though in China's case I believe most were sanctions from the U.N. forcing them to regulate in the name of human rights. True capitalists HATE regulation and fight tooth and nail to STOP the government from regulating businesses. If you're holding up state regulation and control of corporations as "moral" then that's the exact opposite of thinking that free market capitalism is moral.
First, China considers itself communist, not capitalist. American economists sometimes consider it "state capitalism" which is a nice way of saying "Er... yeah... it's communist, but um... well, you know we're supposed to hate that, but China owns half our economy, so uh... it's just state capitalism. Yeah. Totally different." There are some differences from the USSR's version of Communism, but it's not all that different, and it's definitely more like the USSR was than it is like the US. In fact, American economists who want to talk about the USSR without using the scary word "communism" will sometimes refer to it as "state capitalism" as well.
Secondly, you're thinking correlation implies causation, where there's almost nothing at all to imply it. Even if China was a shining example of free market capitalism, that doesn't correlate with whether or not it would treat SARS. The dumbest part is that you're not even using an example, you're just assuming that back when China "was" communist (when did it change?) it would have lied but now that it is capitalist it didn't.
Third, your examples of what China is doing that is "moral", are ALL SOCIALISM. Capitalism loves child labor, zero work standards, and "corruption" is the entire point. There's no such thing as "corruption" in a total free market system, the word doesn't really make sense there; because the whole point is to exploit capital for profit. Laws against child labor, laws to enforce livable work environments, and laws to curtail corporations' abilities to lie to consumers are all considered SOCIALIST. They are usually the domain of unions, though in China's case I believe most were sanctions from the U.N. forcing them to regulate in the name of human rights. True capitalists HATE regulation and fight tooth and nail to STOP the government from regulating businesses. If you're holding up state regulation and control of corporations as "moral" then that's the exact opposite of thinking that free market capitalism is moral.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
I couldn't wait to jump on that one.First, China considers itself communist, not capitalist.
China is communist politically but economically it has adopted capitalism. It switch to the practice of capitalism in 1979, the logic being, if you can't beat them, join them.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Well you jumped on it but you're still wrong. There's no such thing as "communist politically but not economically". Communism is an economic system. Like I said, there are American economists, mostly Republicans who don't want to admit that we're in bed with a Communist nation, who try to dodge it by calling it "state capitalism", but when you get down to it, "state capitalism" is not very different from "corrupt communism". China's economic reforms in the 80's did lower working standards, remove regulations on safety, which increased profits on exports and led to widespread corruption, which are hallmarks of capitalism (but didn't you say those were bad things?) but aside from consolidating more wealth at the top the overall system was still Communist; the wealth is owned and consolidated by the state, not a plutocracy that exists apart from the state.spike wrote:I couldn't wait to jump on that one.First, China considers itself communist, not capitalist.
China is communist politically but economically it has adopted capitalism. It switch to the practice of capitalism in 1979, the logic being, if you can't beat them, join them.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
The only way Spike makes any sense here, is if his notion of "capitalism as a moral system" is interpreted as a suggestion that capitalism could be a moral economical/political system, meaning a morally sound economical/political system.
In other words, what he seems to be trying to do, is to defend capitalism from a moral standpoint. Which is hopeless, of course.
In other words, what he seems to be trying to do, is to defend capitalism from a moral standpoint. Which is hopeless, of course.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
I don't think he's saying that though. He's saying that you can use Randian capitalism as a basis for a separate moral system. Rand wrote a book call "The Virtue of Selfishness", which nicely sums up the viewpoint of Rand and her followers. The whole obsession with Rand is because she pushes this idea that maybe being a complete selfish asshole that cares about no one but himself and destroys anyone who gets in his way is actually really nice and moral if you could just look at it the right way. Unfortunately, it's a total crock, and all it does is make complete selfish assholes that care about no one but themselves suddenly turn into complete selfish assholes that care about no one but themselves AND think they're paragons of goodness.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
That is utterly wrong. To bad you people can't read or think outside their obsessive minds.In other words, what he seems to be trying to do, is to defend capitalism from a moral standpoint. Which is hopeless, of course.
What I am saying is that capitalism, albeit in a backhanded way, facilitates moral and ethical development. People, I am saying, learn best about how to interact and treat each other through the means of capitalism. And I am asking if you know a system that has developed moral and ethical standard throughout the world, mutually beneficial and utilitarian, better than capitalism and its free market principles.
Even though capitalism is a nasty enterprise, I think it provokes the best results possible as to overall moral and ethics behavior in humans, even if it just in response to its downside and failures.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
YES. How about... I don't know... pretty much EVERY OTHER THING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD?! There are millions of systems that are built to promote some moral agenda; again, religion springs to mind as the first, and law as the second. Capitalism has little to do with moralism; to greatly simplify it, it's just the idea of "the rich should control the means of production" instead of "the king should" or "the government should" or "the people should".spike wrote: What I am saying is that capitalism, albeit in a backhanded way, facilitates moral and ethical development. People, I am saying, learn best about how to interact and treat each other through the means of capitalism. And I am asking if you know a system that has developed moral and ethical standard throughout the world, mutually beneficial and utilitarian, better than capitalism and its free market principles.
How are you judging morality? If the main "moral" quality of capitalism is that it leads people to try to fight the moral problems that it itself is causing, then that's not moral at all. It's like saying slavery is a good moral system because it eventually teaches people that slavery is bad.Even though capitalism is a nasty enterprise, I think it provokes the best results possible as to overall moral and ethics behavior in humans, even if it just in response to its downside and failures.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Since capitalism itself has done nothing to develop any moral or ethical standard throughout the world, this question makes no sense.spike wrote:What I am saying is that capitalism, albeit in a backhanded way, facilitates moral and ethical development. People, I am saying, learn best about how to interact and treat each other through the means of capitalism. And I am asking if you know a system that has developed moral and ethical standard throughout the world, mutually beneficial and utilitarian, better than capitalism and its free market principles.
Furthermore, the kind of laissez-faire elitist society you seem to want pretty much boils down to the same thing as Satanism. Yes, the individualism preached by libertarians such as Ayn Rand is, at its core, the same individualism as preached by Anton LaVey, the American founder of the Church of Satan.
Because the freedom of some individuals always comes at the expense of the freedom of other individuals.
Focusing too much on individual freedom promotes egotism and greed rather than compassion and charity. Inequality emerges and increases automaticly. Conscious effort is always required to bring about any kind of equality, or even decency. Democracy is such a conscious effort. Democracy means power to the people, which means distributing power to each individual, rather than pooling it in the hands of a small elite.
LaVey was heavily influenced by Rand, and beside the symbols and occultism, modern Satanism is all about individual freedom not to give a shit about others.
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Hi converge, I don't know why you are wasting your breath...even though you do give good "breath"...lol.
I had a talk with a republican today. I thought we were coming to an understanding. Seriously, I was thinking...finally they are getting it...and then....just as we were winding our chat down...he says,
"You know who we really need in the White House. Donald Trump. He wouldn't back down to those damn Chinese!"
Are they kidding?!?
There are just too many of them...and from reading some of the comments on the Fox News website...they all seem to want to "Kick some liberal ass." There is nothing you can do with this sentiment. There is simply no where to go because liberals tend to be pacifists who back away from a fight.
Not this liberal though....I say bring it.
I had a talk with a republican today. I thought we were coming to an understanding. Seriously, I was thinking...finally they are getting it...and then....just as we were winding our chat down...he says,
"You know who we really need in the White House. Donald Trump. He wouldn't back down to those damn Chinese!"
Are they kidding?!?
There are just too many of them...and from reading some of the comments on the Fox News website...they all seem to want to "Kick some liberal ass." There is nothing you can do with this sentiment. There is simply no where to go because liberals tend to be pacifists who back away from a fight.
Not this liberal though....I say bring it.
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Yeah, I've been thinking about the "kick liberal ass" sentiment a lot lately. It seems like that's one of the only main driving forces for many tea party folks as their leaders demonstrate more and more that they only want to drive their followers into the ground and destroy them. Some republicans seem to view politics like a football game, where once you pick your team, all you care about is that your team wins. But this isn't just a game; the world is at stake, and it affects everyone's lives. There needs to be more to your vote than just "winning" and making sure the other team "loses". Especially since their prize for "winning" is their own destruction. But too many people are unwilling to ever even think about leaving their own team; they will stick with their team even as the coach beats the life out of them and steals everything they own. Because the coach must have a good reason for doing it, after all, he's on your team, right?
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artisticsolution
- Posts: 1933
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Does this stir the heart of republicans? Would you call it honor or follow the leader?
The Charge Of The Light Brigade
by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd ?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd & thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack & Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
Shatter'd & sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse & hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
The Charge Of The Light Brigade
by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd ?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd & thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack & Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
Shatter'd & sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse & hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
Re: Capitalism as a moral system
Capitalism, with its free market principles and the innovations it inspires, gave us the plastic water bottles that saturate the world. It seems to have been invented for moments like this — the earthquake in Japan, where water is needed. The water bottle can easily be shipped and distributed.
Like the Internet, capitalism has created back-up systems and alternatives routes to bypass and ameliorate problems. If one system of communication is down there is another. As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for capitalism we would not have the Internet.
'Necessity is the mother of invention'. Capitalism has created many needs and thus many invention. Not only has it inspired and financed inventions, it has been the means of developing those inventions and distributing them so that we can all benefit from them. The technology that capitalism helped bring along has made us smarter and wiser. Television and the Internet have made us wiser to the ways of the world, wiser to racism, corruption and other human abuses.
After the atomic bomb was invented and dropped during WW 2 capitalism found a way of make commercial use of what was unleashed by atomic fission. It harnessed that energy for peaceful purposes, creating electricity and discovering uses in medicine.
Capitalism is a two headed creature, one bad and one good. The good outweighs the bad. Capitalism creates problems. But as somebody once said, problems makes us better. Without problems we would stagnate. Problems force use to work together, seek solutions and reinvent ourselves.
Like the Internet, capitalism has created back-up systems and alternatives routes to bypass and ameliorate problems. If one system of communication is down there is another. As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for capitalism we would not have the Internet.
'Necessity is the mother of invention'. Capitalism has created many needs and thus many invention. Not only has it inspired and financed inventions, it has been the means of developing those inventions and distributing them so that we can all benefit from them. The technology that capitalism helped bring along has made us smarter and wiser. Television and the Internet have made us wiser to the ways of the world, wiser to racism, corruption and other human abuses.
After the atomic bomb was invented and dropped during WW 2 capitalism found a way of make commercial use of what was unleashed by atomic fission. It harnessed that energy for peaceful purposes, creating electricity and discovering uses in medicine.
Capitalism is a two headed creature, one bad and one good. The good outweighs the bad. Capitalism creates problems. But as somebody once said, problems makes us better. Without problems we would stagnate. Problems force use to work together, seek solutions and reinvent ourselves.