Tainted Relationship With God

[Immanuel Can]

You have to wonder why God never does something wrong while we do.

Why? We aren't God. What would you expect?

Yes, we are not God so we do things wrong sometimes. What do you expect?

I wasn't the one who was doing the expecting. You seemed to think that for some reason, God ought to have made us equivalent to Him. I just can't see why that follows, at all.

We do things wrong because we are not all-wise.

No, we do things wrong because we are not good. That's quite different. We often know what we should do, yet refuse to do it. We don't even use the wisdom we already have, it seems.

...why He didn't create us all-wise?

Does He owe us to do that? Does he owe zebras to make them penguins?

Yes, He owes us unless He has a purpose!

I don't see why God owes us anything. Who is going to call in the "debt" on God?

We have gone through hardship and get from what we were to what we are now.

You'll have to explain that. I don't understand the claim.

What is "what we were," and what is "what we are now"? It seems to me you were born a person, and you'll die a person. If you mean something more than that, you'll have to specify. I can't anticipate what you mean.

Just think of the history of humans to see what I mean.

Human history is bad all the way along. Our means of doing evil may increase, but there's no evidence our nature has changed. So what is this "what we were," and "what we are now"? In what way are we "now" what we "were not" then?

[bahman]

Why? We aren't God. What would you expect?

Yes, we are not God so we do things wrong sometimes. What do you expect?

I wasn't the one who was doing the expecting. You seemed to think that for some reason, God ought to have made us equivalent to Him. I just can't see why that follows, at all.

No, I mean that God must have a purpose for making us incomplete otherwise He has done something wrong.

We do things wrong because we are not all-wise.

No, we do things wrong because we are not good. That's quite different. We often know what we should do, yet refuse to do it. We don't even use the wisdom we already have, it seems.

What do you mean by good and why didn't create us good?

Does He owe us to do that? Does he owe zebras to make them penguins?

Yes, He owes us unless He has a purpose!

I don't see why God owes us anything. Who is going to call in the "debt" on God?

Could God create us better? If yes and He does not have any purpose then He owes us.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, we are not God so we do things wrong sometimes. What do you expect?

I wasn't the one who was doing the expecting. You seemed to think that for some reason, God ought to have made us equivalent to Him. I just can't see why that follows, at all.

No, I mean that God must have a purpose for making us incomplete otherwise He has done something wrong.

What's your evidence that God "made us incomplete"? A penguin and a zebra are different creatures, but both are complete. They are what they are supposed to be. So what's your evidence that man is not what he/she was supposed to be?

We do things wrong because we are not all-wise.

No, we do things wrong because we are not good. That's quite different. We often know what we should do, yet refuse to do it. We don't even use the wisdom we already have, it seems.

What do you mean by good and why didn't create us good?

I mean, morally good. And according to the Biblical account, we (the human race) were created morally innocent, but chose to give that up. So the blame's not on God for that.

Yes, He owes us unless He has a purpose!

I don't see why God owes us anything. Who is going to call in the "debt" on God?

Could God create us better? If yes and He does not have any purpose then He owes us.

In what way "better"? Do you mean "morally innocent"? Then He did that. But even if He had not, by what authority or right are you able to claim a "debt" or "owing" on the part of God?

[bahman]

I wasn't the one who was doing the expecting. You seemed to think that for some reason, God ought to have made us equivalent to Him. I just can't see why that follows, at all.

No, I mean that God must have a purpose for making us incomplete otherwise He has done something wrong.

What's your evidence that God "made us incomplete"?

Just look at us! We do things wrong most of the time.

No, we do things wrong because we are not good. That's quite different. We often know what we should do, yet refuse to do it. We don't even use the wisdom we already have, it seems.

What do you mean by good and why didn't create us good?

I mean, morally good. And according to the Biblical account, we (the human race) were created morally innocent, but chose to give that up. So the blame's not on God for that.

I think we were created ignorant rather than innocent.

I don't see why God owes us anything. Who is going to call in the "debt" on God?

Could God create us better? If yes and He does not have any purpose then He owes us.

In what way "better"?

Not ignorant.

[Immanuel Can]

No, I mean that God must have a purpose for making us incomplete otherwise He has done something wrong.

What's your evidence that God "made us incomplete"?

Just look at us! We do things wrong most of the time.

"Wrong" by what standard?

[bahman]

What's your evidence that God "made us incomplete"?

Just look at us! We do things wrong most of the time.

"Wrong" by what standard?

By God's standard.

[Osric]

Free Will

I don't believe in free will, and here is why. Our physiology and experiences have a major impact on our actions in life. Our brain is a physical factor, much like a CPU of a computer. Then we have experiences, which is a mental factor. Experiences can also be related to the software or operating system of a computer. Overall, the illusion of free will is brought about by the diversity in our actions. Someone with more grey matter in their brain often has more of an advantage in life. A person's IQ often gives them an advantage in life. Often people with more intellect get better jobs, and are more often successful in life.

[Immanuel Can]

Just look at us! We do things wrong most of the time.

"Wrong" by what standard?

By God's standard.

But, unless I'm mistaken, you don't believe in God.

So you can't believe there's a standard.

So there's nothing wrong.

[bahman]

"Wrong" by what standard?

By God's standard.

But, unless I'm mistaken, you don't believe in God.

Who said so? I think there is a God. I am chatting with Him all the time!

So you can't believe there's a standard.

You believe in God. Don't you? So tell me why should God punish us while we are ignorant and do not follow His standard?

So there's nothing wrong.

Really!?

[Immanuel Can]

By God's standard.

But, unless I'm mistaken, you don't believe in God.

Who said so? I think there is a God. I am chatting with Him all the time!

Oh. Well, tell me about that. Who is this god of yours, and what standards does he give you that might be relevant here?

So you can't believe there's a standard.

You believe in God. Don't you?

I do.

So tell me why should God punish us while we are ignorant and do not follow His standard?

Romans 1: we're not ignorant. We choose evil, and we know that we do. And we fight the truth, and we also know we're doing that.

So there's nothing wrong.

Really!?

Well, not if there's no standard. But if you say you have a god, and that god has a standard, I'm perfectly willing to listen. Make that case, if you will.

[bahman]

But, unless I'm mistaken, you don't believe in God.

Who said so? I think there is a God. I am chatting with Him all the time!

Oh. Well, tell me about that. Who is this god of yours, and what standards does he give you that might be relevant here?

I am talking about God who is the highest among gods, being Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Just (by Just I mean that He always does things right, Good or Evil is a matter of situation).

So you can't believe there's a standard.

You believe in God. Don't you?

I do.

Believing is not enough. You have to ask yourself why God does not talk to you!

So tell me why should God punish us while we are ignorant and do not follow His standard?

Romans 1:

Romans 1 does not say what you quote!

we're not ignorant.

Some of us are. God does not punish ignorant people who do wrong.

We choose evil, and we know that we do.

Choosing and doing evil is not wrong perse. God also chooses and does Evil. Isaiah 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And we fight the truth, and we also know we're doing that.

Some people are ignorant some are not.

So there's nothing wrong.

Really!?

Well, not if there's no standard. But if you say you have a god, and that god has a standard, I'm perfectly willing to listen. Make that case, if you will.

My God is Good and Evil. My God punishes and praises us based on what we decide and what we do. My God does not punish ignorant people. My God does not punish people eternally because they didn't repent before their death. My God is not Love. He is Love and Hate. He set us free to decide and act. We do things right and wrong. We move forward when we do things right and get stuck when we do things wrong. Our lives are an opportunity to grow up and become all-wise, namely Godly!

[Immanuel Can]

Who said so? I think there is a God. I am chatting with Him all the time!

Oh. Well, tell me about that. Who is this god of yours, and what standards does he give you that might be relevant here?

I am talking about God who is the highest among gods, being Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Just (by Just I mean that He always does things right, Good or Evil is a matter of situation).

Then you already have given yourself your answer: "he always does things right."

So what makes something "evil," according to your standard?

You believe in God. Don't you?

I do.

Believing is not enough. You have to ask yourself why God does not talk to you!

He has. Just not in the ways you imagine, perhaps.

So tell me why should God punish us while we are ignorant and do not follow His standard?

Romans 1:

Romans 1 does not say what you quote!

Heh. Yeah, it does. It says that men are not at all ignorant. It says they know exactly what they're doing. It says,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible mankind, of birds, four-footed animals, and crawling creatures.

We choose evil, and we know that we do.

Choosing and doing evil is not wrong perse.

Actually, it is.

God also chooses and does Evil. Isaiah 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your translation is unfortunately antiquated.

The word, is "ra," which is capable of a wide range of translations, including "disaster," "calamity," "hurt," "sadness," and "displeasure." So which one is being claimed there will be a matter of context, and the context suggests, by way of it being the opposite of "peace," in the same verse, that it should be translated as something like "turmoil."

It seems highly unlikely, therefore, that Isaiah is suddenly injecting a comment about evildoing. There's nothing in the context to support a preference for that synonym.

And we fight the truth, and we also know we're doing that.

Some people are ignorant some are not.

Romans says we all know enough.

My God is Good and Evil.

Well, if that's the case, then you can't indict your 'god' for allowing evil. It's what you should expect. And ultimately, since all is said to be this 'god,' there is no actual difference between good and evil.

So again, you're without a standard for indicting anything as evil, it would seem.

[bahman]

Oh. Well, tell me about that. Who is this god of yours, and what standards does he give you that might be relevant here?

I am talking about God who is the highest among gods, being Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Just (by Just I mean that He always does things right, Good or Evil is a matter of situation).

Then you already have given yourself your answer: "he always does things right."

Yes, but God causes Evil as well.

So what makes something "evil," according to your standard?

Evil to me equates to suffering. We have been through this before.

I do.

Believing is not enough. You have to ask yourself why God does not talk to you!

He has. Just not in the ways you imagine, perhaps.

Are you saying that God talks with you through the Bible? By talk, I mean hearing His voice and understanding His intention...

We choose evil, and we know that we do.

Choosing and doing evil is not wrong perse.

Actually, it is.

It is not. God Himself does Evil sometimes.

God also chooses and does Evil. Isaiah 7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your translation is unfortunately antiquated.

The word, is "ra," which is capable of a wide range of translations, including "disaster," "calamity," "hurt," "sadness," and "displeasure." So which one is being claimed there will be a matter of context, and the context suggests, by way of it being the opposite of "peace," in the same verse, that it should be translated as something like "turmoil."

It seems highly unlikely, therefore, that Isaiah is suddenly injecting a comment about evildoing. There's nothing in the context to support a preference for that synonym.

Causing disaster, calamity, and hurt... is Evil.

And we fight the truth, and we also know we're doing that.

Some people are ignorant some are not.

Romans says we all know enough.

My God is Good and Evil.

Well, if that's the case, then you can't indict your 'god' for allowing evil. It's what you should expect. And ultimately, since all is said to be this 'god,' there is no actual difference between good and evil.

There is a difference between good and evil.

So again, you're without a standard for indicting anything as evil, it would seem.

Evil to me equates to suffering.

[Immanuel Can]

I am talking about God who is the highest among gods, being Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Just (by Just I mean that He always does things right, Good or Evil is a matter of situation).

Then you already have given yourself your answer: "he always does things right."

Yes, but God causes Evil as well.

Then, by definition, he does not "always do things right."

So I can't make any sense of that contradiction.

So what makes something "evil," according to your standard?

Evil to me equates to suffering. We have been through this before.

Then let's not go there again. But I don't think that confusing suffering for evil makes any sense. SOME suffering is evil; some is not.

By talk, I mean hearing His voice and understanding His intention...

So you're hearing voices? How do you know who's speaking to you?

Causing disaster, calamity, and hurt... is Evil.

No, it actually isn't. If you cause calamity to a criminal, then you're a righteous judge. And not everything that happens in the universe is divinely "caused." We do a lot of calamity-causing ourselves.

My God is Good and Evil.

Well, if that's the case, then you can't indict your 'god' for allowing evil. It's what you should expect. And ultimately, since all is said to be this 'god,' there is no actual difference between good and evil.

There is a difference between good and evil.

It can't be one of any importance. If your 'god' does both, then they are both divine in origin, and are both fated anyway. You can't reasonably or profitably object, can you?

[bahman]

Then you already have given yourself your answer: "he always does things right."

Yes, but God causes Evil as well.

Then, by definition, he does not "always do things right."

So I can't make any sense of that contradiction.

There is no contradiction if you accept that evil equates to suffering. God punishes criminals and they suffer. Is there anything wrong with that?

By talk, I mean hearing His voice and understanding His intention...

So you're hearing voices?

Yes.

How do you know who's speaking to you?

They give me a sort of experience where I can realize who is who.

Causing disaster, calamity, and hurt... is Evil.

No, it actually isn't. If you cause calamity to a criminal, then you're a righteous judge. And not everything that happens in the universe is divinely "caused." We do a lot of calamity-causing ourselves.

They are evil acts but they are right given my definition of evil. What is your definition of good and evil?