WOKE and proud of it....

[Immanuel Can]

I'm not particular "left", but it seems to me that identity is almost entirely constructed.

That seems obviously wrong. When a baby is born, the doctor doesn't say, "Let's make this one female," and the parents, if theyy have a "sex-reveal" party, don't say, "Well, it was born with a penis, but we're declaring it female." It is whatever it is.

And the same is true of Jenner. Why do you think he so fervently insists he has to "become" a woman? One never has to "become" what one already is. "Becoming a woman" is moving from the reality of being a man, in an attempt to declare that one was "really" a woman all along.

Nothing's "constructed" there, except the ideology of transing.

Okay, you don't agree with me, but you could at least thank me for letting you use me as an excuse to vent your feelings about this Jenner dude.

Actually, the only "feeling" I have about him is mild pity. He seems a singularly miserable, confused and lost person. But I wish him well.

The more important point is simply this: even transers use the language of objective sex, in their defense of their ideology. They say Jenner's "not really" a man, but "really" is a woman. But if "woman" is merely a construct, then there's nothing for Jenner to "become." And if his own sex is as real as the "womanness" they claim he "really" has, then he can't leave it, because it's the basic reality with which he was created.

So they can't even keep their own story straight.

That illustrates how bizarre the situation came become if it is allowed, but I think it supports my assertion that our reality is, to a great extent, constructed.

I don't see that it does that at all. It just illustrates that Jenner is delusional, as is everybody who goes along with his delusion. Or more precisely, they are ideologically-possessed.

What is the difference between a delusion and a constructed reality?

Some things are legitimately describable as "constructed." For example, ranks in an army are arranged by human institution, and professions and trades are as chosen by human need. Those are "constructs."

But your height, basic intelligence quotient, age and sex are among the things that are not "constructed." They're facts that are givens.

I still cannot help experiencing morality as something real,

That is, indeed, a big problem for your theory. To be a Subjectivist means that you simply cannot believe that anything in reality corresponds to morality. It has to be entirely imaginary.

It's not a problem.

It is, because by your own account, nobody even has to agree with you. So that's a problem. It means whatever moral assessment you make lasts no longer than the tip of your own nose. In fact, you don't even know for sure that what you claim to "experience" is even real, so it doesn't even last that far.

With you, as with many, it always seems to be a case of all or nothing,...

Some things are like that. There's no "shading" between something existing and the same thing not existing. Either biological sex exists as a real thing, or it does not really exist at all. One cannot simultaneously sing the song both ways.

But the issue involves much more than biological sex...

What "issue"? What one is, sexually, is entirely determined by biology. Your own physiology will tell you that much.

Boys cannot grow up to bear children, and girls cannot grow up get them pregnant, but much of our attitudes about gender are constructed.

Sure, we have constructed particular behavior expectations. That's a commonplace. But that's far from suggesting that even these constructions were not premised on biological facts, sometimes. For example, we do not let women compete in combat or strength sports against equivalent men. And with good reason; that puts the women at such a total disadvantage as to guarantee them defeat. A 30-year-old athletic man will absolutely defeat every equivalently-athletic female of the same age, for example...and it won't even be close. Hence the reason for Title 9 protections for women's sports.

I've already said that biological males should not be allowed to compete in women's sport.

Why not? If sex is "constructed," then as soon as some man wants to "reconstruct" himself as a woman, what's your rationale for stopping him, if biology doesn't count?

I thoroughly agree that a biological male should not be allowed to take part in competitive female sport, and should not be granted the status of woman in various other areas, but I see no reason to raise any objection to whatever someone wants to identify as when there is no cost to us.

Why do you agree? If he's genuinely a woman, and it was all "constructed" and is now "reconstructed," why do you "discriminate against" him?

I don't know what you mean. He might be a genuine woman as far as he is concerned, but that's his perceived reality, not mine.

That's not how the Wokies see things. They think it's your moral duty to "affirm" his new sex. And if you don't, you're "oppressing" and "deadnaming" him.

Yes, it's lunatic: but that's the logical consequence of what they claim is true, namely that sex is merely a "construct."

[Alexiev]

Free Enterprise is utterly moral, freeing, & natural while communism/socialism/communitarianism/progressivism/etc. is utterly immoral, enslaving, & unnatural...& more than a lil stupid.

Didn't you read the Kipling poem you posted?

[Peter Kropotkin]

Peter Kropotkin: sure, let us rehash old stuff.......

who am I to say that another person possibilities are wrong and
unnatural? For me to achieve what is possible for me, requires
that others accept those possibilities....and for others to achieve
their own possibilities, I must accept their possibilities....

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

for if I claim the right to deny him his possibilities, he can then claim the right
to deny me my own possibilities... on what grounds do we deny others
their possibilities? on what standard? on what grounds do we deny
a man their own possibilities to be a woman? What standard are we
using? and remember, any standard we use to deny other's rights, can then
be used against us in our own search for us reaching our possibilities....

ATTO: Richard Feynman If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it."
Let's take the red bit. Notice, you used "HIM" - what right to tell "HIM" etc..

K: what right do I have to tell him he is wrong?

atto: Every women in a women's sporting outfit has every right to tell a MAN that he cannot pretend to be a WOMAN and compete fairly as a woman in their sport.

K: as I mentioned, I am a man, I don't pretend to be anything different....
This being California, I have known several men who transitioned into women...
they aren't pretending to be women, they are women..... with all the required
body parts and all.... but that part of it doesn't interest me as much as
to why you are so in fear of men being women..... what drives you to such
hatred and anger? What TRIGGERS you in such a way against this?
that is the discussion I would rather have? Why you are in so much fear
about this matter?

ATTO: AGAIN:- What rational argument do you have as to why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN
Is it so that male pansies can finally start winning medals?

K: your statement is rather ludicrous to say the least....
''why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN''....a rather bold and
sweeping statement about all men everywhere.... in fact, in the U.S,
roughly 1.6 million people identify as transgender.... men to women,
women to men.... (which surprisingly enough, you don't object to)
for math purposes, let us call that 2 million people... out of 340 million
people.... which works out to .06% of the entire American population.....
identifies as transgender... or a city roughly the size of Phoenix Arizona...
or to say, not a massive number of Americans identifies as transgender....
this isn't really a problem.... we have far greater problems in America,
that impact a far greater number of people.... but your fear has
turned this problem into a civilization ending problem..... it isn't.....
on the scale of things, say the top 100 things to fear, I would put
this ''transgenderism'' around the top 125 or even top 150 things to fear....
this has become a huge problem for you because you fear this...
and fear turns a small problem into a much bigger problem.....

and for the last part, I doubt you competed as an athlete...
I did, for a long time..... winning medals is nice, but that
isn't what drives an athlete...

Kropotkin

[henry quirk]

Didn't you read the Kipling poem you posted?

I did...

I take Kipling's meaning to be: Reality, no matter how far a'field man goes with his fantasies, always asserts itself.

...did you?

[henry quirk]

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

First: there is no possibility a man can be a woman.

Second: telling a man no, you are not, and can't ever be, a woman denies him nuthin' 'cept your participation in his delusion.

[Alexiev]

Didn't you read the Kipling poem you posted?

I did...

I take Kipling's meaning to be: Reality, no matter how far a'field man goes with his fantasies, always asserts itself.

...did you?

"Then the gods of the market tumbled, and their smooth tongued wizards withdrew...."

Of course the "smooth tongued" bit is overblown. (I'd post the rest of the verse but I can't copy and paste on my phone.)

[Immanuel Can]

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

First: there is no possibility a man can be a woman.

Second: telling a man no, you are not, and can't ever be, a woman denies him nuthin' 'cept your participation in his delusion.

...and it does him the favour of returning his attention to reality, instead of to fancies he's deceiving himself with. So you're not only not denying him anything he can ever actually have, but you're therapeutic for him if you contribut to the defeating of his delusions.

[Peter Kropotkin]

I recognize the mixing and maxing of this thread...
but in order to keep this short and manageable, I am doing
this this way.....

Q: Men can be women.

Answer: A man can pretend to be a woman, but he can never be a woman.

K: IN fact, men can transition into a women with all the required body parts..
and I have known those and women can transition into men with all the
required body parts.... again, from personal knowledge.... there is no pretending...
they have the required body parts in the required places... they are who they say
they are......

Q: Transing is affirming of identity.

Answer: It's insanity, marketed & sold.

K: once, again, based on what standards? how do you know, KNOW,
it is ''insanity"... what is YOUR definition of insanity?

Q: America is inherently racist.

Answer: Sez no one who has at least three brain cells & a jot of integrity.

K: that the laws of America were, and to some point even today, racist,
is quite clear..... or are you saying that laws that made blacks slaves,
slavery being legal, isn't racists? or that the longstanding Jim Crow laws
of the south were not racists? that is an astonishing claim....
that slavery isn't racist.... or that Jim Crow laws weren't racist.....
but hay, make that defense if you can......

Q: Capitalism destroys, but Communism offers ultimate freedom.

A: Free Enterprise is utterly moral, freeing, & natural while communism/socialism/communitarianism/progressivism/etc. is utterly immoral, enslaving, & unnatural...& more than a lil stupid.

K: and we hit the really stupid statement of the night....
that free enterprise if ''utterly moral'' ''freeing'' and ''natural''
capitalism isn't moral, it isn't freeing and it is clearly not natural.....
I have argued against both capitalism and, AND communism....
and they suffer from the same problem..... that they dehumanize
and devalue human beings... the pursuit of profits is placed ahead of
people's lives....is putting money/profits before people, is that really something
you can call ''moral?" is the capitalistic practice of stealing the wages of
employees moral? but the same thing can be said of communism...
that communism devalues human beings before the all powerful
dialectical materialism? that the drive to a worker's paradise is worth
the lives of millions of people... I don't think so.......that the worker
must bow down to ''historical inevitability'' is just not a faith that I hold...
capitalism is wrong as is communism... and for the exact same reasons.....

and how is being an economic slave... to be considered, to be ''freeing""
that there is no escape from the ism of capitalism, a system of choice,
that allows no choice in the matter, how is that freeing?

and natural... LOL... there is nothing natural in any way, shape or form
about capitalism....... that you have no clue about the various economic
systems that human beings have had, leads me to believe you have no clue....

the longest lasting economic system human beings have ever had,
was the hunter-gatherer system....an economic system that lasted
over a million years.....or the next economic system which was the pastoral
system.... which we still have in some parts of the world....

these two economic systems can carry us back into the very dawn of
human beings.... capitalism, as an economic system is about
250 years old.... it is just the latest of a long line of economic
systems...and there will be more to come.... we won't experience
them, but they are a coming......

Q: Taxes are good.

A: Taxation is theft.

K: ... civilizations are built on taxes... pure and simple...
no taxes, no civilization, no state,
only the Hobbesian nature of every man for himself....
where life outside of society/state would be:

''solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short''

that is life outside of taxes and government.... our current high standard
of civilization requires us to have taxes.... no taxes and we are all living
in, at best, huts or caves.... that doesn't appeal to me, and it shouldn't appeal to
you....

Kropotkin

[Alexiev]

First: there is no possibility a man can be a woman.

Oh, come on, Henry. Don't despair. You can be anything you want to be, if you'll just beleve.

[accelafine]

Peter Kropotkin: sure, let us rehash old stuff.......

who am I to say that another person possibilities are wrong and
unnatural? For me to achieve what is possible for me, requires
that others accept those possibilities....and for others to achieve
their own possibilities, I must accept their possibilities....

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

for if I claim the right to deny him his possibilities, he can then claim the right
to deny me my own possibilities... on what grounds do we deny others
their possibilities? on what standard? on what grounds do we deny
a man their own possibilities to be a woman? What standard are we
using? and remember, any standard we use to deny other's rights, can then
be used against us in our own search for us reaching our possibilities....

ATTO: Richard Feynman If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it."
Let's take the red bit. Notice, you used "HIM" - what right to tell "HIM" etc..

K: what right do I have to tell him he is wrong?

atto: Every women in a women's sporting outfit has every right to tell a MAN that he cannot pretend to be a WOMAN and compete fairly as a woman in their sport.

K: as I mentioned, I am a man, I don't pretend to be anything different....
This being California, I have known several men who transitioned into women...
they aren't pretending to be women, they are women..... with all the required
body parts and all.... but that part of it doesn't interest me as much as
to why you are so in fear of men being women..... what drives you to such
hatred and anger? What TRIGGERS you in such a way against this?
that is the discussion I would rather have? Why you are in so much fear
about this matter?

ATTO: AGAIN:- What rational argument do you have as to why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN
Is it so that male pansies can finally start winning medals?

K: your statement is rather ludicrous to say the least....
''why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN''....a rather bold and
sweeping statement about all men everywhere.... in fact, in the U.S,
roughly 1.6 million people identify as transgender.... men to women,
women to men.... (which surprisingly enough, you don't object to)
for math purposes, let us call that 2 million people... out of 340 million
people.... which works out to .06% of the entire American population.....
identifies as transgender... or a city roughly the size of Phoenix Arizona...
or to say, not a massive number of Americans identifies as transgender....
this isn't really a problem.... we have far greater problems in America,
that impact a far greater number of people.... but your fear has
turned this problem into a civilization ending problem..... it isn't.....
on the scale of things, say the top 100 things to fear, I would put
this ''transgenderism'' around the top 125 or even top 150 things to fear....
this has become a huge problem for you because you fear this...
and fear turns a small problem into a much bigger problem.....

and for the last part, I doubt you competed as an athlete...
I did, for a long time..... winning medals is nice, but that
isn't what drives an athlete...

Kropotkin

So according to ksrospostin, a woman is a castrated man with a hole drilled in the general area of a vagina which has to be dilated every day or it will close up. Got it, kropsoristkin.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Peter Kropotkin: sure, let us rehash old stuff.......

who am I to say that another person possibilities are wrong and
unnatural? For me to achieve what is possible for me, requires
that others accept those possibilities....and for others to achieve
their own possibilities, I must accept their possibilities....

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

for if I claim the right to deny him his possibilities, he can then claim the right
to deny me my own possibilities... on what grounds do we deny others
their possibilities? on what standard? on what grounds do we deny
a man their own possibilities to be a woman? What standard are we
using? and remember, any standard we use to deny other's rights, can then
be used against us in our own search for us reaching our possibilities....

ATTO: Richard Feynman If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it."
Let's take the red bit. Notice, you used "HIM" - what right to tell "HIM" etc..

K: what right do I have to tell him he is wrong?

atto: Every women in a women's sporting outfit has every right to tell a MAN that he cannot pretend to be a WOMAN and compete fairly as a woman in their sport.

K: as I mentioned, I am a man, I don't pretend to be anything different....
This being California, I have known several men who transitioned into women...
they aren't pretending to be women, they are women..... with all the required
body parts and all.... but that part of it doesn't interest me as much as
to why you are so in fear of men being women..... what drives you to such
hatred and anger? What TRIGGERS you in such a way against this?
that is the discussion I would rather have? Why you are in so much fear
about this matter?

ATTO: AGAIN:- What rational argument do you have as to why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN
Is it so that male pansies can finally start winning medals?

K: your statement is rather ludicrous to say the least....
''why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN''....a rather bold and
sweeping statement about all men everywhere.... in fact, in the U.S,
roughly 1.6 million people identify as transgender.... men to women,
women to men.... (which surprisingly enough, you don't object to)
for math purposes, let us call that 2 million people... out of 340 million
people.... which works out to .06% of the entire American population.....
identifies as transgender... or a city roughly the size of Phoenix Arizona...
or to say, not a massive number of Americans identifies as transgender....
this isn't really a problem.... we have far greater problems in America,
that impact a far greater number of people.... but your fear has
turned this problem into a civilization ending problem..... it isn't.....
on the scale of things, say the top 100 things to fear, I would put
this ''transgenderism'' around the top 125 or even top 150 things to fear....
this has become a huge problem for you because you fear this...
and fear turns a small problem into a much bigger problem.....

and for the last part, I doubt you competed as an athlete...
I did, for a long time..... winning medals is nice, but that
isn't what drives an athlete...

Kropotkin

A: So according to ksrospostin, a woman is a castrated man with a hole drilled in the general area of a vagina which has to be dilated every day or it will close up. Got it, kropsoristkin.

K: still leaving us this question about why you are so ''TRIGGERED'' by
men becoming women.... why this very deep seated fear?
do you have some sort of castration fears? what do I care if
men become women or women become men?.. it doesn't threaten
me, but it clearly threatens you...... perhaps some therapy can help
you overcome this clearly damaging fear you have.......

and the insults... don't bother me.... I've heard them all.....
what would excite me would be someone who was actually
original in their insults... your insults, not so original or interesting.........

Kropotkin

[attofishpi]

So according to ksrospostin, a woman is a castrated man with a hole drilled in the general area of a vagina which has to be dilated every day or it will close up. Got it, kropsoristkin.

He is definitely the most stupid person I have ever come across in over 10 years of being on this forum AND over 30 years of being on the internet...it must be awful for his family.

People with such low intellectual capacity should NOT be allowed to VOTE!!

[accelafine]

Peter Kropotkin: sure, let us rehash old stuff.......

who am I to say that another person possibilities are wrong and
unnatural? For me to achieve what is possible for me, requires
that others accept those possibilities....and for others to achieve
their own possibilities, I must accept their possibilities....

if a man believes himself to be a woman, what right do I have
to tell him he is wrong? why do I have the right to deny him
his possibilities, and based on what reasons, do I deny him
his possibilities?

for if I claim the right to deny him his possibilities, he can then claim the right
to deny me my own possibilities... on what grounds do we deny others
their possibilities? on what standard? on what grounds do we deny
a man their own possibilities to be a woman? What standard are we
using? and remember, any standard we use to deny other's rights, can then
be used against us in our own search for us reaching our possibilities....

ATTO: Richard Feynman If you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it."
Let's take the red bit. Notice, you used "HIM" - what right to tell "HIM" etc..

K: what right do I have to tell him he is wrong?

atto: Every women in a women's sporting outfit has every right to tell a MAN that he cannot pretend to be a WOMAN and compete fairly as a woman in their sport.

K: as I mentioned, I am a man, I don't pretend to be anything different....
This being California, I have known several men who transitioned into women...
they aren't pretending to be women, they are women..... with all the required
body parts and all.... but that part of it doesn't interest me as much as
to why you are so in fear of men being women..... what drives you to such
hatred and anger? What TRIGGERS you in such a way against this?
that is the discussion I would rather have? Why you are in so much fear
about this matter?

ATTO: AGAIN:- What rational argument do you have as to why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN
Is it so that male pansies can finally start winning medals?

K: your statement is rather ludicrous to say the least....
''why MEN can always claim to be WOMEN''....a rather bold and
sweeping statement about all men everywhere.... in fact, in the U.S,
roughly 1.6 million people identify as transgender.... men to women,
women to men.... (which surprisingly enough, you don't object to)
for math purposes, let us call that 2 million people... out of 340 million
people.... which works out to .06% of the entire American population.....
identifies as transgender... or a city roughly the size of Phoenix Arizona...
or to say, not a massive number of Americans identifies as transgender....
this isn't really a problem.... we have far greater problems in America,
that impact a far greater number of people.... but your fear has
turned this problem into a civilization ending problem..... it isn't.....
on the scale of things, say the top 100 things to fear, I would put
this ''transgenderism'' around the top 125 or even top 150 things to fear....
this has become a huge problem for you because you fear this...
and fear turns a small problem into a much bigger problem.....

and for the last part, I doubt you competed as an athlete...
I did, for a long time..... winning medals is nice, but that
isn't what drives an athlete...

Kropotkin

A: So according to ksrospostin, a woman is a castrated man with a hole drilled in the general area of a vagina which has to be dilated every day or it will close up. Got it, kropsoristkin.

K: still leaving us this question about why you are so ''TRIGGERED'' by
men becoming women.... why this very deep seated fear?
do you have some sort of castration fears? what do I care if
men become women or women become men?.. it doesn't threaten
me, but it clearly threatens you...... perhaps some therapy can help
you overcome this clearly damaging fear you have.......

and the insults... don't bother me.... I've heard them all.....
what would excite me would be someone who was actually
original in their insults... your insults, not so original or interesting.........

Kropotkin

Men don't become women. I can't even be bothered explaining to you the different life experience between being a man or a woman. If you can't work it out for yourself then there's really no point in trying to explain it. You clearly have no empathy or ability to see outside your own personal experience of the world. Good luck to you old man.

[Peter Kropotkin]

accelafine:

Men don't become women. I can't even be bothered explaining to you the different life experience between being a man or a woman. If you can't work it out for yourself then there's really no point in trying to explain it. You clearly have no empathy or ability to see outside your own personal experience of the world. Good luck to you old man.

K: and yet, men do become women and women become men... as I mentioned,
I know some..... they are living their lives with the sex of their choice....
I do find it interesting that you consider your position to be one of

"empathy or with ability to see outside of your own personal experiences
of the world''

given how TRIGGERED you are by this.. its clear you can't get past this....

and frankly, I am glad that people can become who they are...
that if men believe themselves to be better human beings as a woman,
I say go for it.... there is nothing wrong with it....
despite your bigotry and hatred of people transforming....
I think it is a good thing and perhaps, you may want to try it...
transforming yourself into a kinder, less bigoted human being....
just a thought...

Kropotkin

[accelafine]

Perhaps you should 'identify' as young then. That will make you young again. Guaranteed