Will God Save Us from Ourselves?

[Age]

Yeah check it out fish. U don't gotta empty yourself of what it is that drives u to believe (or at least consider) that there is something more going on... that metaphysical impulse in man that makes him subconsciously want to find evidence for the things he'd like to believe exist;

This one here known as "promethean75" is a prime example of who wants to find evidence for the thing/s it would like to believe exists or believes does not exist.

As it has shown and proven already and will continue to show and prove, moving on from here, as well.

immortality, love, goodness, purpose, fulfilment, all the good spiritual stuff.

Which all do, obviously, exist, anyway.

U can do all that but u gotta be willing to disregard a certain belief system that provides all that if it contains preposterous ideas.

Are you willing to disregard some or all of your own certain belief system?

Or, you just want to keep telling others that 'they got to do it'?

Like christianity or islam or judaism or the ancient polytheistic pagan religions.

But, what about 'your own religion' here "promethean75"?

Do you not got to be will to disregard 'that one'?

And not just for the reason that they are preposterous.

This one's 'currently' held onto belief system, and religion, is so very strongly shining its light here, now.

The more important reason is that these kinds of theological models strip man of a responsibility that would be critical, i think, if indeed there is something more going on.

Coming from the adult human being who, actually, 'blamed' a child/chldren for it masturbating in front of them, as well as for it 'getting caught'.

What 'religious model' were/are you using that stripped you, a supposed 'grown' adult "man", of 'your responsibility's' here, which are 'absolutely critical' for all to live in?

Believing that 'it's in god's hands' places man in a subordinate role concerning his self creativity, development and improvement.

One could talk about some thing being in some hands here. But, is it really necessary?

It makes him fearful, it makes him apathetic and unconcerned about making any great effort at changing anything (it's god's plan, etc).

Only if one has an, obviously, False interpretation of 'God', Itself.

It makes him necessarily shameful to himself.

Really?

Why do you believe this is so?

Do you feel 'shameful' to "yourself", for some of the things that you do, because of God, others, or 'you', alone?

It saps one's sense of pride and self respect. And in it's worst form it separates and divides people and causes them to not trust each other, to do violence against each other.

So, it could be inferred here that only the "believers" of God do these things, right?

Alright now look.

Okay.

What if damn near everything these religions shared in common - the basic ideas - regarding the nature of the good, virtue, happiness, morality, is all true

Well, if 'it' is all true, then 'it' is, just, 'all true'.

BUT..... there are no creator god's that transcend the universe and were the cause of it.

Why did you use a small 'g' here, and why more than one?

Obviously, there is NO 'God', big or small 'g', nor many of 'them', that transcends the Universe nor created the Universe.

This is, obviously, irrefutable. That is; once one uncovers, or learns, and comprehends and understands the actual Truth here.

That specifically created us, gave us purpose, watch over us and are prepared to either reward or punish us after we die. None of that stuff.

How do 'you', supposedly, 'know' 'this', when others do not?

Hold that thought for a sec.

What and/or which 'thought' is 'that', exactly?

Are you even aware of how much in what you have just said and wrote here is, blatantly, False and/or Wrong?

Is this 'the thought' that 'you' are telling to 'hold', for a second?

Suppose also that we have a strange kind of reincarnation thing going on,

Are you aware that there is a 'kind of reincarnation', actually, and literally, 'going on', but which just about all of you human beings, hitherto when this is being written, have absolutely no idea nor even clue about in regards to how 'this reincarnation' actually works?

the workings of which are a mystery,

For you information, you do not have to 'suppose' this, because there is a 'kind of reincarnation' 'going on', which is a complete and utter mystery to you all here.

In fact, 'this reincarnation' will remain a complete mystery to you here, who are the ones who think or 'believe' of 'reincarnation' in 'that Truly impossible' way, which is talked about.

and that the 'good' is rooted in some kind of intrinsic life stimulus (like an elan vital or sumthin) thingie that's the thing that makes everyone, by default, be he a 'normal' human being, not want, not prefer, to do any harm to anything if he can so help it.

But, the very 'nature' of being a human being, or the very 'intrinsic thing' within all human beings, which is to 'just be' and 'just do' what is, naturally, 'human', which is to, just, do what is Right and/or True, in Life, is 'always there', or always in there'. you adult human beings just do some Wrong things, because you have just been taught to follow what is Wrong, and not True, in Life.

All of you human beings, naturally, just want to do what is Right and good. However, because of False and Wrong teachings, you all grew up not 'knowing' what is Right and good, and are just 'following' what you were 'taught', and thus have 'learned', to 'try to justify', some of which is Truly Wrong, and bad, in Life.

Instead he wants to know the thing, understand it, be generous to it, help it along, watch it grow if he can afford to and if he doesn't have to eat the damn thing to survive. It's that immanent goodwill intrinsic to that life force that is developing in the universe and that animates us. A curious eros dwells in everything that lives, really, but only in the human being does it become self aware and creative.

Okay.

Alright here's my point.

Great.

If this mysterium universum (i just made that up)

Which, by the way, is only 'mysteries' to some, but not all.

is not always progressing and developing toward a more excellent state (I dunno what that would be), and, it's possible that things can get relatively worse for the beings being reincarnated if they fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the reality they are in and negelect to do the things that help them progress, then if religious belief contributes to this, i think so it's gotta go, mate.

I think so also.

Just like 'your own religious thinking', "promethean75", contributes to the Wrong, and neglect, in Life, would be better gone as well.

So, who goes first here? yours or the other religious/religions?

I mean the religions that take responsibility from man and hold him accountable to something other than himself and his fellow human beings.

Is this like when a so-called "adult man" does not take responsibility and hold "itself" accountable, but, instead, takes and puts 'that responsibility' onto some one or something else?

Apocalyptic religions (which ones aren't) that tell man this world is ephemeral and of little importance.

I do not know of any 'religion' that espouses this idea and claim of yours here "promethean75".

From what I have read, heard, and observed every religion that talks about 'heaven', 'hell', or the changing of 'this world' does so in just how very, very important it is to do, only, what is Right, and good, for 'this very world, itself, and all who exist and belong within it.

Missionary religions that try to impose conflicting doctrines on each other and end up at war with one another.

Which is, exactly, nothing different from what can and does happen when you adult human beings just 'try to' impose your conflicting doctrines, views, and/or beliefs upon one another.

Nationalistic religions that create distrust and feelings of superiority or inferiority in people according to what 'race' they are.
Belief in such gods isn't needed to provide 'foundation' to any of the goods and virtues that everyone normal prefers to express and experience in their lives.

I am not sure how 'religions' like the so-called "klu klux klan" have anything to do with religions in God, but anyway,

Obviously, a belief in A God is not needed to just do what is Right, or good, in Life.

This goes without saying.

(And please for the moment don't tell me all theories of altruism have their problems, and that I've yet to define what 'normal' means becuz i know that dummy. Just humor me)

Where are we at.

'I', for one anyway, am just 'following' 'you', here.

So, where 'we' are 'at' is 'wherever' you are 'at'.

Oh yeah. A good metaphor for what I'm tryna emphasize would be like this. The son must at some point gain his complete independence from the father if he is to ever be in possession of, and completely responsible for, himself.

Why are you 'trying to emphasize this'?

Did you think or believe that there are some posters here that did not, already, 'know' this?

Is there any poster here who did not, already, 'know', that at some point every child gains their complete independence from their parent/s, guardian/s, and absolutely everything else, that is; of course if they ever want to be fully Truly responsible?

That responsibility involves knowing that it is man who creates a telos for his world, not something external to himself.

Which would, obviously, include never ever blaming absolutely any thing for absolutely every thought, and every mis/behavior, that one has and does.

And, even more so, never ever blaming absolutely any one, like especially a child/children, for what an adult/adults, think and/or how they mis/behave. Accepting and taking full responsibility also includes never ever blaming a child/children for how they, "themselves" think and/or "mis"/behave.

And that he answers to himself and to his fellow human beings (i just mentioned your boy feuerbach in keter's thread earlier check em out).

Now if in fact we are all reincarnates and that erotic force that propels us to love and grow rather than do battle and destroy can be complicated and corrupted by life's experiences, then that fact would be the very mechanism that pushes and develops the world and moves it toward greater excellence, more advanced and creative states (whatever they are).

Obviously, this one has not yet come-to-realize that because of 'the way' human beings actually best grow and develop, through and by 'learning' from 'making mistakes', which is itself best done by accepting and taking absolute full responsibility for absolutely all that one does, then this is how 'the world', itself, actually grows, advances, and prospers for the good and best, for all and everyone. So, there 'had to be' a stage throughout the evolution of human beings, where some have 'had to' endure what could be called and classed as the 'bad or worst times', which unfortunately for those who are are 'here', in the days when this is being written, is 'those times'. But, 'knowing' that 'these worst times' are to create and cause the 'better and best times' for all and every one 'moving forward', then one 'becomes aware' 'these times' 'had to exist' for the 're-in-carnation' of 'the world', to 'be-come', that absolutely every one 'wants' and 'desires', and is wanting and desiring to make and create 'it' to-be.

It is becuz there is that conflict that there can be resolution and therefore progress.

Where, exactly, is there any actual 'conflict' here, to you?

That things can 'go wrong' both in individual's lives and in the course of a world's development - that there can be more suffering and unhappiness - is what stimulates and guides every person's development toward better states as they pass through their series of lives. Bro this is what happens when you've read too much Hegel. That and i smoked some trees about an hour ago.

Okay.

There's a caveat tho, a very dangerous caveat, the truth (or not) of which is very important.

If this isn't the first life of everyone who's appeared on erf so far, and instead we've already lived once or more before, then everything i just said falls apart and we are plunged into the abyss of nihilism, mate.

Well it is an irrefutable Fact that no 'actual person' could come back. Once who and what a 'person' is, exactly, is also 'known' and understood, then there is no dispute here, at all.

Why. Becuz in each life we have no knowledge of our previous ones and therefore there is no sense of greater or worse states (each life is isolated from the others, mnemonically), then we have no reason to try and understand our reality so that we do improve as we develop and pass to the next state. See what'um sayin. There would be no intrinsic karmic sense of justice and rightness that we carry through life; the series of reincarnations you are involved in would have no conscious telos... u wouldn't be able to feel like u could do better, much less that u should.

Alright so no god but a bunch of little godlike creatures called humans that evolved in a field of energy they call the material world who are living the first of their immortal lives and who are totally responsible for everything they will become thereafter.

But;

1. you never said any thing about, let alone proved, there being no, actual, God.

2. Not all human beings are totally responsible for absolutely any thing, let alone every thing, they are nor will become so-called 'thereafter'.

There is no god here to produce consequences for bad decisions.

This is, obviously, False.

Because of what God is, exactly, if you adult human beings do Wrong, like for example, then God, Itself, produces consequences for your Wrong, and/or bad, decisions. And, if you adult human beings keep making Wrong, and/or bad, decisions, then those consequences will continue, making life a living hell for all of you human beings.

Which is all described in some religious texts.

Instead each individual produces them for themselves, punishes themselves, by their own bad conscience.

Saying or writing, 'bad conscience' is an oxymoron.

Also, the Wrong, and/or bad, decisions that you adult human beings make, does not just produce Wrong, or bad, consequences for you alone. Children are also greatly effect, and can be ever far more so.

That conscience is like the socratic daemon sitting on your shoudler teaching u what is right as u go through life each time.

Well this contradicts your previous sentence in regards to you saying and writing 'bad conscience'.

The less u listen to em, the more pain and problems u have.

The less you listen, to what you call 'conscience', but what some others just call God, or Allah, the more pain and issues there can be for others, and, for you.

But, as long as you adult human beings keep 'not listening', then more hell-like existence will continue on earth, and not just for you adult human beings but for "your" children, as well.

Again, the story about 'heaven' and 'hell' had already been 'told' in some books, texts, or scriptures. But, sadly, most of you adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, do not 'listen' to it, exactly in how it was actually expressed and 'first told', and only 'listen' to the completely Wrong misinterpreted version/s. Exactly like how what you adult human beings do with the story of 'reincarnation'. you adult human beings do 'not listen', but, instead, make up your very own stories, and versions, and then share and spread those misinterpretations, only.

This isn't a sage, mate. This is that erotic force dwelling in the human soul that i was talking about up page.

So, there is some 'thing', within, but it is, supposedly, not 'God', nor a 'sage'.

But, there is, supposedly, a 'soul', with some so-called 'erotic' 'force' within, 'the soul'.

Again, this is also, obviously, very False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect, and can be very easily and very simply Correct here, but 'who', here, would ever 'listen to' what 'I' have to express, and share, here?

The reason why there are conflicts at all in the social-material world is becuz we are doing something wrong collectively.

And, what is that 'thing', exactly?

Once one 'knows' what that 'thing' is, exactly, then 'it' is impossible to 'unsee' and to 'not understand'.

Such conflicts should be constantly reduced as we assimilate the world and use it to live and reproduce as a species.

Already started. That is, of course, by and from those who have, actually, taken in and understood fully 'the world', exactly, as 'it' is, and other things here.

But they aren't always are.

Yeah but no. [/quote]

Where these two sentences meant to make sense and/or relate to some other actual thing here?

The gods of the anthropomorphic religions are preposterous ideas.

Is not just 'anthropomorphism', itself, just a 'preposterous idea', itself?

They are all reifications of man's own nature (as feuerbach put it) if in fact that's what we are; reincarnating beings who exist in material worlds.

But, what is 'man's own nature', exactly, and how does 'that' relate to 'woman's own nature', and to 'children's own nature', and, of course, to 'human being's own nature'?

My gut tells me I'm wrong and that something less karmic and more nietzschean eternal recurrence of the same (or near same) is what's really happening in this universe. And that's some series shit, mate. Blow yer fuckin head up be like bzzzzzzzzrrrr boom. Now wtf u gone do.

What 'I' am 'now' going to do is wonder when you adult human beings will start 'listening', so all of this 'assuming' about 'what could be' will cease?

[Age]

..I'm starting to get the impression that you don't believe God exists? Even worse coupled with that - that my claim to KNOW with certainty that God exists is somehow, inaccurate?

LOL "immanuel can" also claims to 'know' that God exists, also.

But, the completely different 'God' that "immanuel can" and "attofishpi" both 'know' exists, are two, obviously, False Gods.

'Knowing' some thing exists', is a Truly very simple and easy thing to do. 'Knowing' who and/or what that 'thing' is, exactly, and/or what that 'thing' is made up of, exactly, is a whole other matter.

So, both 'you', "attofishpi", and, 'you', "Immanuel can", both claim to 'know' that God exists. So, let 'us' 'see' both of 'you' show and tell 'us' who and what God is, exactly.

Both of 'you' telling 'us' that 'you' 'know' God exists can get very tedious and boring. Hearing either of 'you' explain to 'us' who and/or what God is, exactly, would be some thing very, very different.

[Age]

REALLY? U R wrong on two counts.


1. There is nothing in the NT that explicitly states first U die then go to 'X'. I continue to be in and out of HELL> <HEAVEN

2. I am far more rational about comprehension of GOD than anyone U have ever comprehended (probably )

God doesn't require any comprehension, unless you prefer to comprehend a vacuum.

Actually, when IT (God) starts testing U, you best put your analyst hat on pretty quick - and indeed comprehend what this entity is capable of. (other_wise U may as well check in to a mental asylum)

So,

What have you, supposedly, 'comprehended' in regards to what 'this entity', is supposedly, capable of, exactly, "attofishpi"?

God is nothing more than a fictional character in a Jewish text...and if there were a god what has it to do with the bible???

Stated with such certainty and totally wrong.

What is, supposedly, 'totally wrong', exactly?

More to the point, what has the Bible got to do with God?

The bible was created by, or is a creation of, God.

Or, does your version/comprehension about God not create absolutely every thing?

[Age]

SHOE!!

Once again, this one comes into a 'philosophy forum', and makes claims and assertions. But, when questioned and/or challenged wishes, (to God), that 'I' will not.

Again, if one cannot back up and support their claims and assertions here, especially in a 'philosophy forum', then it would be and is best, for them, to not make their views and/or beliefs 'publicly known'.

[Age]

Actually, when IT (God) starts testing U, you best put your analyst hat on pretty quick - and indeed comprehend what this entity is capable of. (other_wise U may as well check in to a mental asylum)

Why would god be testing you? Testing you for what purpose and why you? Just to say he's testing you, doesn't mean a thing to anyone. On such a singular level god, for better worse, becomes one's personal creation however it manifests.

God is nothing more than a fictional character in a Jewish text...and if there were a god what has it to do with the bible???

Stated with such certainty and totally wrong. More to the point, what has the Bible got to do with God?

Is there anything which requires a god instead of natural laws for its explanation?

The, irrefutable, answer to this is a resounding 'No'.

But, is there also any thing that says that God is not the 'Natural Lore', Itself?

Could the word 'God' just have been a word used to point to or to denote 'Nature', Itself?

Throughout the entire history of the planet, not to mention what we know of the universe, there is not a single, remnant, relic, or atom denoting the existence of a god, its requirement or necessity.

When you use, say, and write the word 'god', what are you meaning or referring to, exactly?

It's the human brain and only that, which conjures it, consequently reifying it into actual existence based on its own psychic cravings.

Obviously, through 'Nature', and 'Natural Lore', human brains were created and have evolved to do, what they do. So, if it is the human brain, and only the human brain, which has conjured up the word 'God', then what did 'Nature', Itself, do this for, exactly?

The brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

And, what gave birth, and gave rise, to the 'human brain', if it was not 'Nature', Itself, or in another word (if it was not) 'God', Itself?

[attofishpi]

Actually, when IT (God) starts testing U, you best put your analyst hat on pretty quick - and indeed comprehend what this entity is capable of. (other_wise U may as well check in to a mental asylum)

Why would god be testing you? Testing you for what purpose and why you? Just to say he's testing you, doesn't mean a thing to anyone. On such a singular level god, for better worse, becomes one's personal creation however it manifests.

Well, it was in answer to your statement that God does not require any comprehension. My point being, that IF God starts interacting with you, then you certainly will start to comprehend it.

RE: Y testing me - I'm not sure, certainly I must have had strong faith in Christ in the prior life which sage\God have informed me a thing or two about. I took human life - abortion - yet so many have and they never seem to get 'tested'.
I was forced out of work and told "DO ART" - - which I did, and when short on cash I asked God\sage for money since they want me to do this art stuff...a few days later I notice $4500 has been deposited into my bank account - transaction titled "BT PORTFOLIO" -- BT my initials.

So. Perhaps I am supposed to eventually provide a cogent argument supported with art as evidence of God? Perhaps I earn my right to be with Christ and the sages?


<FAITH> antonym <DOUBT> ..again:- DO_U_BT?

Of course, unconvinced atheists take my word suggestions as evidence of intelligent construct to our reality as mere coincidence at best..

REAL_IT_Y?

In hindsight since 1997 - the year God started testing me, and making me aware of ITs existence - I look at the nature of moi..indeed the Life of Brian. I look at where I was born, Southampton and the two main rivers THE TEST and THE ITCHEN-->feed the SOL_ENT (every summer i'd swim in the river Test) One could consider Southampton as the "vagina" of England, in my painting.




Since knowing God exists I do scope REAL_IT_Y for interesting quirks..

DO_U_BT--> My initials on every telephone box in BR_it_AIN: (of course British Telecom )

God is nothing more than a fictional character in a Jewish text...and if there were a god what has it to do with the bible???

Stated with such certainty and totally wrong. More to the point, what has the Bible got to do with God?

Is there anything which requires a god instead of natural laws for its explanation?

KNOWING that God exists throughout ALL of matter within our conscious brain, it's my belief that God is actually required as part of the brain that permits conscious awareness. In other words, just having an particular arrangement of atoms ain't gonna cut it - there is something more fundamental going on for consciousness.

Throughout the entire history of the planet, not to mention what we know of the universe, there is not a single, remnant, relic, or atom denoting the existence of a god, its requirement or necessity.

There's LOADS of evidence at our present state in time. That we can now comprehend an ALL knowing entity via technology is of paramount importance to the evidence I present. SIN_A.I. being one key to that.
The opening lines of Genesis where the universe was s-poke-n into reality sound like rubbish, but considering God as some form of AI - it doesn't quite sound so nonsensical.

It's the human brain and only that, which conjures it, consequently reifying it into actual existence based on its own psychic cravings. The brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

That's your short of insight view, indeed mere belief.

[Age]

Actually, when IT (God) starts testing U, you best put your analyst hat on pretty quick - and indeed comprehend what this entity is capable of. (other_wise U may as well check in to a mental asylum)

Why would god be testing you? Testing you for what purpose and why you? Just to say he's testing you, doesn't mean a thing to anyone. On such a singular level god, for better worse, becomes one's personal creation however it manifests.

Well, it was in answer to your statement that God does not require any comprehension. My point being, that IF God starts interacting with you, then you certainly will start to comprehend it.

That you think or believe that God, one day after being born, 'starts' 'testing' and/or 'interacting' with you, then you have not more deluded and conned "attofishpi".

RE: Y testing me - I'm not sure, certainly I must have had strong faith in Christ in the prior life which sage\God have informed me a thing or two about.
This response/answer here shows and proves just how little you really know here.

I took human life - abortion - yet so many have and they never seem to get 'tested'.

What does 'this' even, exactly?

I was forced out of work and told "DO ART" - - which I did, and when short on cash I asked God\sage for money since they want me to do this art stuff...a few days later I notice $4500 has been deposited into my bank account - transaction titled "BT PORTFOLIO" -- BT my initials.

you were asked, 'Why would god be testing you?'

The answer is, you are not sure. Full stop.

The rest of what you say and claim here is why you ended up having to see "specialists".

Let 'me' put 'that question' to you in another way, 'Why would God, Itself, pick out and, supposedly, put "attofishpi" to 'some test'?

What purpose would God have 'with you', personally, and, what would be the test for, exactly?

If you are, still, 'not sure', then, obviously, you have FAILED, some imagined, God's test, 'on' you.

So. Perhaps I am supposed to eventually provide a cogent argument supported with art as evidence of God?

LOL It could be said and argued here that "immanuel can's" version/knowledge of God is closer than yours. And, LOL, "immaneul can" actually believes, absolutely, that God is male gendered, and created the whole Universe.

Perhaps I earn my right to be with Christ and the sages?

The 'old', ' i ever so desperately hope that i will be one of the chosen ones with i 'die' ', beliefs. Which were instilled into the more gullible ones, through and indoctrinated teaching, from a very disturbed or twisted religion.

Obviously, in one of your, alleged, 'past lives' your never even knew of some other human being named and labeled "jesus christ". But, here 'you' are, 'currently', hoping that you have earned some 'delusional right' to be with this absolutely nothing different human being, and some so-called "sages".

From what this sounds like 'now'. 'you' have conned and deluded "your" own 'self' in regards with your belief that God exists, that God, Itself, decided to pick "attofishpi", for 'some test', and which you desperately hope you pass so that you get 'some right' to end up with your own imagined heroes, because of some False belief that has been instilled in you about what happens after you die.

Also, in case you have not yet noticed, if 'you' keep coming back here to 'this life' in other living beings, in what you Wrongly call 'reincarnation', then you will never ever get to be with your imaginary friends, which were 'drummed and indoctrinated into you' through obviously False teachings.

<FAITH> antonym <DOUBT> ..again:- DO_U_BT?

Do you actually, still, believe that the 'things' that you 'see', and believe, here, that others 'see' them, as well.

Also, what are 'your initials' sometimes 'bt' and sometimes 'as'?

Of course, unconvinced atheists take my word suggestions as evidence of intelligent construct to our reality as mere coincidence at best..

Just sometimes "attofishpi" sometimes some others 'see' far more of what is actually True than you ever have.

'your word suggestions' here nothing but the 'very tip'.

And, 'the way' you express them here, there is no wonder that you are the only one 'seeing' what you do here.

REAL_IT_Y?

This one, like a lot of the other ones, you never get around to explain what it is that you are 'seeing' here.

So, let 'us' 'see' if you do this time, 'What does the word 'reality' actually mean or is referencing, exactly, when you write it in capital letters and break it up in the way that you do?'

What is 'it' that you are 'seeing' when you write the word 'reality' as 'REAL_IT_Y', (with a question mark)?

In hindsight since 1997 - the year God started testing me, and making me aware of ITs existence - I look at the nature of moi..indeed the Life of Brian. I look at where I was born, Southampton and the two main rivers THE TEST and THE ITCHEN-->feed the SOL_ENT (every summer i'd swim in the river Test) One could consider Southampton as the "vagina" of England, in my painting.

So, more or less, because you swam, supposedly every summer, in a river call 'test', then this means God is 'testing you'?

Have I got, at least, this right?

Also, you are not answering, 'Why would God be testing you?'

If the answer is you, still, are not sure. Then again, just put a full stop of that answer/response, and stop. Absolutely everything else you are saying here is not clearing up absolutely any thing. Just like every other time you have said the exact same things.

Since knowing God exists I do scope REAL_IT_Y for interesting quirks..

Although 'this' might 'make sense' to you, does 'this' 'make sense' to absolutely anyone else here?

If yes, then could you please explain to the rest of 'us' here what it actually means or is referring to, exactly.

From my perspective, it certainly in absolutely no way at all proves that God exists nor that God ever so-called 'tested' "attofishpi", at all.

DO_U_BT--> My initials on every telephone box in BR_it_AIN: (of course British Telecom )

Honestly, if you went to "doctors" saying things like this, there is no wonder you got diagnosed 'the way' that you did.

Is there anything which requires a god instead of natural laws for its explanation?

KNOWING that God exists throughout ALL of matter within our conscious brain, it's my belief that God is actually required as part of the brain that permits conscious awareness.

But, all you are really saying and claiming here is;

you know some thing exists throughout ALL of matter.

1. you do not have to add the words, 'within our conscious brain', because the human brain is made up of matter just like every other physical thing in the whole Universe is.

2. If there is some thing existing throughout ALL of matter, then this can be and will be by what was known to you people, back in the days when this was being written, as just 'natural laws'.

In other words, just having an particular arrangement of atoms ain't gonna cut it - there is something more fundamental going on for consciousness.

And, you are 'basing this on' 'what', exactly?

Pre-existing 'natural laws', your belief that God exists, and/or is in control, or 'on' some other thing/s?

Throughout the entire history of the planet, not to mention what we know of the universe, there is not a single, remnant, relic, or atom denoting the existence of a god, its requirement or necessity.

There's LOADS of evidence at our present state in time.

Why then do you human beings not put ALL of the, supposed and alleged, 'LOADS of evidence' forward, in the days when this is being written?

Also, are you aware that what one might 'see' as 'evidence' can be and regularly is 'not seen' as 'evidence' to another, or is even 'seen' as 'evidence' to and for the 'contrary'.

Which makes your whole human based 'evidence based system of knowledge and knowing' highly unreliable, to say the least.

Obviously, you have absolutely no actual 'proof' at all, right?

That we can now comprehend an ALL knowing entity via technology is of paramount importance to the evidence I present.

So, to "attofishpi" anyway, why, exactly, can 'we', supposedly, 'now' comprehend an ALL knowing entity, supposedly, via technology?

And, how and why, exactly, is this, supposedly, of so-called 'paramount importance', to some, alleged, 'evidence' that you have or will, supposedly, 'present'?

SIN_A.I. being one key to that.

Now, how and why would "attofishpi" wrting 'SIN_A.I.' be 'evidence' for absolutely any thing here? And, in what possible way could it be?

That is if 'this' is what you are actually 'trying to say and claim' here.

Are you "attofishpi" 'trying to' say and claim that when you write, 'SIN_A.I' that 'this' is somehow 'evidence for God'?

The opening lines of Genesis where the universe was s-poke-n

Why, exactly, did you write the 'spoken' word like you just did here?

into reality sound like rubbish, but considering God as some form of AI - it doesn't quite sound so nonsensical.

Considering that God, Itself, is some sort of 'artificial intelligence', which obviously irrefutably mean that 'it' had to be created by something else. just makes an absolute mockery of your belief/s and claim/s here.

And, in what 'world' does considering/imagining that God, the supposed and alleged creator of the Whole Universe, and thus absolutely every thing within It, being some form of 'artificial intellignce', and being able to 'speak' and/or to have 's-poke-n' the Whole Universe into existence, does not 'now', supposedly, quite sound so nonsensical.

To me, what you have just said and claimed made 'your version' of things far, far MORE nonsensical. What you said here sounds absolutely nonsensical.

And, does the word 'spoken' when you write it as, 's-poke-n', somehow mean to you that God 'poked' the Universe, into existence? Or, am I just 'way off track' here?

It's the human brain and only that, which conjures it, consequently reifying it into actual existence based on its own psychic cravings. The brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

That's your short of insight view, indeed mere belief.

But, your views "attofishpi" are not 'short of insight views', nor are just 'mere belief', right?

[promethean75]

"This one here known as "promethean75" is a prime example of who wants to find evidence for the thing/s it would like to believe exists or believes does not exist"

U and your high counsel of philosopher sages will not intimidate me or my friends at PN, Age.

Back in the days we adult humans thought this was irrefutably true, and we will continue to do so today.

Now take me back to my dungeon holding cell and tell that guy sitting to your left to do something with that beard of his.

What is it with u people anyway? Don't u have any normal clothes? U look like Jor-El from superman 2.

[Age]

"This one here known as "promethean75" is a prime example of who wants to find evidence for the thing/s it would like to believe exists or believes does not exist"

U and your high counsel of philosopher sages will not intimidate me or my friends at PN, Age.

I most certainly hope not. I had absolutely no intention to do so.

I was and am just wanting you to express your beliefs here more clearly, and soundly and validly.

Oh, that and I was just pointing out where, when, and why your views that are False and/or Wrong are False and/or Wrong.

Back in the days we adult humans thought this was irrefutably true, and we will continue to do so today.

What, exactly, did you and they think was 'irrefutably true', and will continue to do so 'today', which obviously was in the exact same days as when this was being written, 'back then'.

Now take me back to my dungeon holding cell and tell that guy sitting to your left to do something with that beard of his.

The only so-called 'holding cell' that you were in, and still are in, is the one of your own making, by your own beliefs here.

What is it with u people anyway?

'What people' are 'you', the person named "promethean75" even referring to here, exactly?

Don't u have any normal clothes? U look like Jor-El from superman 2.

Okay.

But, are you even aware that all you can, actually, literally, 'look at', and 'see', here are just words alone?

Anything like what you just talked about here is in the imagination within that body, and not in 'actuality', or what you might call 'reality'.

[Dubious]

he brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

That's your short of insight view, indeed mere belief.

It's the modus operandi of every theist to turn every fact, which isn't favorable to his view, into a fiction and every type of fiction into fact which is favorable. Absolute denial and assertions is all it takes without requiring the least reference to any established fact; what could be simpler, evidence of anything not a factor, a technique, on this site, perfected by IC.

Without this methodology god, at best, would exist only as a philosophical entity meaning a thoroughly impersonal one vis-à-vis its theistic version thoroughly engrossed in human affairs including the most minute individual ones as, for example, asserted by you, one in which the question becomes paramount...why would god bother unless you were to become his anointed, his prophet?

Since we can't find any such Being in nature anywhere, we were forced to create this panorama of gods which interweave god's interest, god's consciousness, affirming the importance of our own in the process. The fact that we can create gods allows us to likewise appear as a superior creation, referenced by the metaphor of being created in his image as interpreted in most of Western art.

For as long as they remain, the abiding challenge for all theists is and remains:

Show me a god that wasn't created...compared to the ones that were and consequently believed in.

[attofishpi]

he brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

That's your short of insight view, indeed mere belief.

It's the modus operandi of every theist to turn every fact, which isn't favorable to his view, into a fiction and every type of fiction into fact which is favorable.

I used to be a theist---> now I have gnosis, knowledge that God does indeed exist as FACT.

Do you agree with this:
IF God exists a person can be made aware of the FACT that it exists, by God?
IF God does not exist, nobody can every have any certainty ever to claim as FACT that God does not exist?

Absolute denial and assertions is all it takes without requiring the least reference to any established fact; what could be simpler, evidence of anything not a factor, a technique, on this site, perfected by IC.

But I am referencing FACTS all the time as evidence that only via an intelligence beyond mere wo/man can certain KEY words have been formed in their current state. That natural etymology alone cannot account for the state of those words, indeed also letters used in English, such as Y = WHY? O=oh/owe
HELL_O? etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..(how much cumalitive evidence need a RATIONAL atheist be provided to convince them that God exists beyond a reasonalbe DO_U_BT?)

Without this methodology god, at best, would exist only as a philosophical entity meaning a thoroughly impersonal one vis-à-vis its theistic version thoroughly engrossed in human affairs including the most minute individual ones as,

A rather daft useless methodology certainly not part of my method of analysis.

..for example, asserted by you, one in which the question becomes paramount...why would god bother unless you were to become his anointed, his prophet?

...happy to profit any time.

Since we can't find any such Being in nature anywhere,

We?

..we were forced to create this panorama of gods which interweave god's interest, god's consciousness, affirming the importance of our own in the process. The fact that we can create gods allows us to likewise appear as a superior creation, referenced by the metaphor of being created in his image as interpreted in most of Western art.

Indeed, we are a perfect creation...certainly many of the female form from my POV

A common thing said to me from the aether lately is "Get perfect.." the other day when I looked at a box of empty beer bottles "Be annoyed.," was stated.
..and presto - I was being pa_annoyed when I went up the shops.

For as long as they remain, the abiding challenge for all theists is and remains:

Show me a god that wasn't created...compared to the ones that were and consequently believed in.

..it's only a fun challenge. I can lead an atheist to evidence, but I cannot think for them.


Here's a challenge:-
BARK up the Tree of KNOW_LEDGE SAP...LEAVE!!

...random crap? ..or do U C something of deeper LOG_I_C going on

[Dubious]

he brain has always been the cradle hosting the birth of god or the gods and all their supposed divine interventions.

It's the modus operandi of every theist to turn every fact, which isn't favorable to his view, into a fiction and every type of fiction into fact which is favorable.

I used to be a theist---> now I have gnosis, knowledge that God does indeed exist as FACT.

Do you agree with this:
IF God exists a person can be made aware of the FACT that it exists, by God?
IF God does not exist, nobody can every have any certainty ever to claim as FACT that God does not exist?

Absolute denial and assertions is all it takes without requiring the least reference to any established fact; what could be simpler, evidence of anything not a factor, a technique, on this site, perfected by IC.

But I am referencing FACTS all the time as evidence that only via an intelligence beyond mere wo/man can certain KEY words have been formed in their current state. That natural etymology alone cannot account for the state of those words, indeed also letters used in English, such as Y = WHY? O=oh/owe
HELL_O? etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..(how much cumalitive evidence need a RATIONAL atheist be provided to convince them that God exists beyond a reasonalbe DO_U_BT?)

Without this methodology god, at best, would exist only as a philosophical entity meaning a thoroughly impersonal one vis-à-vis its theistic version thoroughly engrossed in human affairs including the most minute individual ones as,

A rather daft useless methodology certainly not part of my method of analysis.

..for example, asserted by you, one in which the question becomes paramount...why would god bother unless you were to become his anointed, his prophet?

...happy to profit any time.

Since we can't find any such Being in nature anywhere,

We?

..we were forced to create this panorama of gods which interweave god's interest, god's consciousness, affirming the importance of our own in the process. The fact that we can create gods allows us to likewise appear as a superior creation, referenced by the metaphor of being created in his image as interpreted in most of Western art.

Indeed, we are a perfect creation...certainly many of the female form from my POV

A common thing said to me from the aether lately is "Get perfect.." the other day when I looked at a box of empty beer bottles "Be annoyed.," was stated.
..and presto - I was being pa_annoyed when I went up the shops.

For as long as they remain, the abiding challenge for all theists is and remains:

Show me a god that wasn't created...compared to the ones that were and consequently believed in.

..it's only a fun challenge. I can lead an atheist to evidence, but I cannot think for them.


Here's a challenge:-
BARK up the Tree of KNOW_LEDGE SAP...LEAVE!!

...random crap? ..or do U C something of deeper LOG_I_C going on

As usual, it defaults to each his own. Whatever makes you comfortable. For me, god is the most useless entity conceptualized by humans as a function of knowing or understanding anything. The most it accomplished is wish-fulfillment by those who find such a being necessary to their existence. Where god is concerned, the response Laplace made to Napoleon regarding god sums it up perfectly:

“Sire, I have had no need of that hypothesis”

[attofishpi]

It's the modus operandi of every theist to turn every fact, which isn't favorable to his view, into a fiction and every type of fiction into fact which is favorable.

I used to be a theist---> now I have gnosis, knowledge that God does indeed exist as FACT.

Do you agree with this:
IF God exists a person can be made aware of the FACT that it exists, by God?
IF God does not exist, nobody can every have any certainty ever to claim as FACT that God does not exist?

Absolute denial and assertions is all it takes without requiring the least reference to any established fact; what could be simpler, evidence of anything not a factor, a technique, on this site, perfected by IC.

But I am referencing FACTS all the time as evidence that only via an intelligence beyond mere wo/man can certain KEY words have been formed in their current state. That natural etymology alone cannot account for the state of those words, indeed also letters used in English, such as Y = WHY? O=oh/owe
HELL_O? etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..etc..(how much cumalitive evidence need a RATIONAL atheist be provided to convince them that God exists beyond a reasonalbe DO_U_BT?)

Without this methodology god, at best, would exist only as a philosophical entity meaning a thoroughly impersonal one vis-à-vis its theistic version thoroughly engrossed in human affairs including the most minute individual ones as,

A rather daft useless methodology certainly not part of my method of analysis.

..for example, asserted by you, one in which the question becomes paramount...why would god bother unless you were to become his anointed, his prophet?

...happy to profit any time.

Since we can't find any such Being in nature anywhere,

We?

..we were forced to create this panorama of gods which interweave god's interest, god's consciousness, affirming the importance of our own in the process. The fact that we can create gods allows us to likewise appear as a superior creation, referenced by the metaphor of being created in his image as interpreted in most of Western art.

Indeed, we are a perfect creation...certainly many of the female form from my POV

A common thing said to me from the aether lately is "Get perfect.." the other day when I looked at a box of empty beer bottles "Be annoyed.," was stated.
..and presto - I was being pa_annoyed when I went up the shops.

For as long as they remain, the abiding challenge for all theists is and remains:

Show me a god that wasn't created...compared to the ones that were and consequently believed in.

..it's only a fun challenge. I can lead an atheist to evidence, but I cannot think for them.


Here's a challenge:-
BARK up the Tree of KNOW_LEDGE SAP...LEAVE!!

...random crap? ..or do U C something of deeper LOG_I_C going on

As usual, it defaults to each his own. Whatever makes you comfortable.

God making ME comfortable? Far from it...the wrath of God is something I wouldn't wish on anyone. I actually considered at times I must have been Hitler in my previous life!!

For me, god is the most useless entity conceptualized by humans as a function of knowing or understanding anything.

For me I marvel at what man has built over the centuries, indeed the millennia. Beautiful Cathedrals and Churches giving hope to people in times of great hardship, indeed places of solace. All because of what one man went through to enlighten the world with His wisdom and love.

Aside from being an inaccurate comprehension of reality, atheism offers nothing.

The most it accomplished is wish-fulfillment by those who find such a being necessary to their existence. Where god is concerned, the response Laplace made to Napoleon regarding god sums it up perfectly:

“Sire, I have had no need of that hypothesis”

There are plenty of scientists\mathematicians that are theist that would ALSO state that.

A theist can have faith and still have NO restriction on their scientific search for answers based on empirical evidence. Key difference being, God may allow the theist a tad more depth to fathom..

[promethean75]

Except for that magnificent architectural beauty, churches are obscene in so many other ways and some of the little marxian ironies are fantastic. That some of the biggest churchs and/or church complexes in history were built by broke ass low class workers that lived in huts if they were lucky, almost makes this monty python level stuff. Cue scene where nearly starved peasant workers dressed in rags and covered in dirt gather in the church they built during the freezing winter months to huddle together and praise god for his grace and generosity.

Mate Imagine how much better housing could have been built with the labor and material used to build those useless things.

And the pyramids? don't even go to there. Those are the grossest displays of the effects of mysticism/religion and class exploitation in the history of the erf.

[attofishpi]

Except for that magnificent architectural beauty, churches are obscene in so many other ways and some of the little marxian ironies are fantastic.

My word you have a large chip on your should re anything you see as disparity of wealth - get over it.

That some of the biggest churchs and/or church complexes in history were built by broke ass low class workers that lived in huts if they were lucky

The stonemasons and labourers at the time had faith in Christ within their hearts and what that man went through to encourage such faith and love. Every cold sodden day they worked they knew they were building upon the foundation of what Christ stood for, they may have lived in huts but they knew these beautiful buildings would last for millennia and certainly would have been proud of their accomplishment.

Cue scene where nearly starved peasant workers dressed in rags and covered in dirt gather in the church they built during the freezing winter months to huddle together and praise god for his grace and generosity.

Yep they probably did and all the while knowing that what they built would be places for generations of their offspring to also praise God, to learn about the life of Christ...a place where in any hardships they could find solace for 100s to thousands of years.

Let me know of your favourite atheist inspired building?

Mate Imagine how much better housing could have been built with the labor and material used to build those useless things.

Useless? Read a few lines up - surely even an atheist might comprehend the use of these magnificent achievements.

Housing wasn't such a problem and certainly was not intended to last for thousands of years.