The Wild Child [L’enfant Sauvage]
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: It was not what I had hoped. Had he said the word before the thing he desired was conceded he would have grasped the use of words. A point of communication would have been established and rapid progress would have followed this initial success.
One of us!
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: Victor has always shown a marked preference for water and the way he drinks it shows he finds great pleasure in it. He stands near the window, gazing upon the countryside as if in this delectable moment the child of nature sought to reunite the two blessings to survive his loss of freedom.
Of course, that's true of for all of us. Click, anyway.
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: For an interminable moment, I thought what I’d dreaded since Victor came to live with us had happened: that his fancy for the freedom of the woods had prevailed over his newfound needs and burgeoning affection.
Next up: Peta weighs in.
Housekeeper: His tantrums are your fault. You make him study from morning to night. You turn his only pleasures into exercises. His meals, his walks, everything. He works ten times more than the normal child.
Someone had to civilize him though, right?
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: Had I not known his limits, I’d have thought he understood my criticisms. I had barely chastized him when I saw his chest heave noisily and a stream of tears falling from underneath the blindfold.
Success!
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: Now, ready to renounce the task I had imposed upon myself, seeing how much time I’d wasted on him, how deeply I regretted having known this child, I condemned the sterile curiosity of the men who had wrenched him away from his innocent and happy life.
Not everyone can be Nell.
Dr. Itard [voiceover]: When he succeeds I reward him, when he fails I punish him. Yet I can’t say I have instilled a sense of justice in him. He obeys me and corrects hmself out of fear or out of hope for a reward and not out of a sense of moral order. To obtain less ambiguous results I must do an abominable thing.
How abominable?
Dr Itard [voiceover]: I will test Victor’s heart with a flagrant piece of injustice by punishing him for no reason after he succeeds right before my eyes. I shall administer a punishment as odious as it is unjust precisely to see if his reaction is one of rebellion.
How odious? It’s pretty fucked up. And Victor rebels. And then this observation:
Dr Itard [voiceover]: I wish my pupil could have understood me at this moment. I would have told him that his bite filled my soul with joy. I had irrefutable evidence that what is just and unjust was no longer alien to Victor’s heart. By giving him the sentiment, or rather by invoking it, I had elevated the savage man to the nature of a moral being by the most noble of his attributes.
I can just imagine the reaction of the objectivists here. And, no doubt, they can imagine my own reaction in turn.
Quote of the day
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iambiguous
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Re: Quote of the day
A tragedy is one thing. But it’s another thing altogether when you figure you played a part in it. Or you figure someone you loved did. It can thump your life up one side and down the other. It can flay relationships…leave them in tatters.
I know from personal experience. It just depends on how big it was. And how long it took to simmer down.
Here you see what people do. But you don’t always know what motivates them to do it. And in the gaps all sorts of unexpected surprises emerge. Same with us. Especially when we get confused about our own motives.
And Eddie is just a kid...however precocious. And that makes Ted pretty much a scumbag. With Marion, however, it’s a bit more ambiguous.
The Door in the Floor
Interviewer: In my opinion, there is no better opening to any story than the opening of The Mouse Crawling Between the Walls. I mean, the first lines…
Ted: “Tom woke up, but Tim did not.”
He writes [and illustrates] children’s books. You know the kind.
[repeated line]
Ted: I’m just an entertainer of children, and I like to draw.
And from rime to time he may actually believe it.
Ruth: Daddy, I had a dream. I heard a sound.
Ted: Uh, what sort of sound?
Ruth: It’s in the house, but it’s trying to be quiet.
Ted: Hmm. Well, let’s go look for it then. It’s a sound that’s trying to be quiet? What did it sound like?
Ruth: It was a sound like someone trying not to make a sound.
She's more precocious than most kids her age let's say.
Ruth: Daddy, your penis looks funny.
Ted: My penis is funny.
Then he carries her down the hall buck naked. Kind of creepy. Or maybe not.
Ted [to Eddie]: Well, writing is rigorous work. I keep myself incredibly busy. Many of my books contain 500 words or less, so…every word must be examined and re-examined thoroughly. You’re going to be spending the whole summer looking for le mot juste, as Flaubert says. The right word. The true word.
Like we do!
Marion: How’s the work going for you?
Eddie: I just retype A Sound Like Someone Trying Not to Make a Sound every morning. Sometimes he changes a comma from a semicolon, and then the next morning he changes it back.
Not to mention ripping off his daughter.
I know from personal experience. It just depends on how big it was. And how long it took to simmer down.
Here you see what people do. But you don’t always know what motivates them to do it. And in the gaps all sorts of unexpected surprises emerge. Same with us. Especially when we get confused about our own motives.
And Eddie is just a kid...however precocious. And that makes Ted pretty much a scumbag. With Marion, however, it’s a bit more ambiguous.
The Door in the Floor
Interviewer: In my opinion, there is no better opening to any story than the opening of The Mouse Crawling Between the Walls. I mean, the first lines…
Ted: “Tom woke up, but Tim did not.”
He writes [and illustrates] children’s books. You know the kind.
[repeated line]
Ted: I’m just an entertainer of children, and I like to draw.
And from rime to time he may actually believe it.
Ruth: Daddy, I had a dream. I heard a sound.
Ted: Uh, what sort of sound?
Ruth: It’s in the house, but it’s trying to be quiet.
Ted: Hmm. Well, let’s go look for it then. It’s a sound that’s trying to be quiet? What did it sound like?
Ruth: It was a sound like someone trying not to make a sound.
She's more precocious than most kids her age let's say.
Ruth: Daddy, your penis looks funny.
Ted: My penis is funny.
Then he carries her down the hall buck naked. Kind of creepy. Or maybe not.
Ted [to Eddie]: Well, writing is rigorous work. I keep myself incredibly busy. Many of my books contain 500 words or less, so…every word must be examined and re-examined thoroughly. You’re going to be spending the whole summer looking for le mot juste, as Flaubert says. The right word. The true word.
Like we do!
Marion: How’s the work going for you?
Eddie: I just retype A Sound Like Someone Trying Not to Make a Sound every morning. Sometimes he changes a comma from a semicolon, and then the next morning he changes it back.
Not to mention ripping off his daughter.
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iambiguous
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Re: Quote of the day
The Door in the Floor
Marion: I don’t know if they had sex. Thomas, maybe. He was so popular. But, Timothy, he was so shy. That’s all boys want, isn’t it?
Eddie: Yes.
Marion: Have you had sex, Eddie?
Eddie: No.
Marion: Well, it’s too hot in here, so I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t wear the sweater.
He has sex.
Eddie: Testify?
Ted: In the event of a custody dispute, regarding which one of us is a more fit parent. I would never have let a child see me with another woman, whereas Marion…has really made no effort whatsoever to protect Ruth from seeing what she saw. And if you are asked to testify to what happened, I trust that you won’t lie not in a court of law.
Probably his plan all along.
Ted: From the sound of it, it was a rear-entry position…not that I have a personal problem with that or any other position. But for a child, I imagine doing it doggishly must seem especially animalistic.
Well, she was freaked out.
Marion: He starts with conventional portraits…a mother, a child. Then the mother, then the mother nude. Then the nudes go through phases, like innocence, modesty, degradation and shame.
Eddie: Mrs. Vaughn?
Marion: Mrs. Vaughn is experiencing the degrading phase right now.
She's got that part right.
Ted: If she thinks she’s got a rat’s ass of a chance to get custody of Ruth, she’s got another think coming.
Eddie: She doesn’t expect to get custody of Ruth. She has no intention of trying.
Just to get away from him need be all the motive she needs.
Ted: I never knew you were such a superior person, Alice.
Eddie: Alice has been superior to me all summer. Haven’t you Alice?
Alice: I am morally superior to you, Eddie. I know that much.
Ted: “Morally superior.” What a concept.
Let's bring it down to Earth.
Ted: Forget the light, Eddie. This story is better in the dark.
Eddie: What story?
Ted: You told me you asked Marion to tell it to you, but Marion can’t handle this story. Turns her to stone just thinking about it. Remember, you turned her to stone just asking her about it.
Eddie: I remember.
The accident. The beloved sons dead.
Ted: The snowplow cut the car almost perfectly in half.
In the back, you lived. In the front, you died.
Ted [telling Eddie about the accident]: And then Marion, she sees Timmy’s shoe in the wreckage. “Oh, look. Timmy’s shoe. He’s gonna need his shoe.” And she walks over to it, reaches down to pick it up. Ted…Ted wanted to stop her…Talk about turned to stone. I couldn’t move. I couldn’t even speak. And that was when Ted allowed his wife to discover that her younger son’s shoe was attached…to a leg. And that was when Marion realized that Timmy was gone too. And that…that is the end of the story.
Dasein in a particularly epiphanic moment.
Ted: I hired you, Eddie, because you look like Thomas. I gave her you.
Think about that. 60 times, remember?
Marion: I don’t know if they had sex. Thomas, maybe. He was so popular. But, Timothy, he was so shy. That’s all boys want, isn’t it?
Eddie: Yes.
Marion: Have you had sex, Eddie?
Eddie: No.
Marion: Well, it’s too hot in here, so I hope you’ll forgive me if I don’t wear the sweater.
He has sex.
Eddie: Testify?
Ted: In the event of a custody dispute, regarding which one of us is a more fit parent. I would never have let a child see me with another woman, whereas Marion…has really made no effort whatsoever to protect Ruth from seeing what she saw. And if you are asked to testify to what happened, I trust that you won’t lie not in a court of law.
Probably his plan all along.
Ted: From the sound of it, it was a rear-entry position…not that I have a personal problem with that or any other position. But for a child, I imagine doing it doggishly must seem especially animalistic.
Well, she was freaked out.
Marion: He starts with conventional portraits…a mother, a child. Then the mother, then the mother nude. Then the nudes go through phases, like innocence, modesty, degradation and shame.
Eddie: Mrs. Vaughn?
Marion: Mrs. Vaughn is experiencing the degrading phase right now.
She's got that part right.
Ted: If she thinks she’s got a rat’s ass of a chance to get custody of Ruth, she’s got another think coming.
Eddie: She doesn’t expect to get custody of Ruth. She has no intention of trying.
Just to get away from him need be all the motive she needs.
Ted: I never knew you were such a superior person, Alice.
Eddie: Alice has been superior to me all summer. Haven’t you Alice?
Alice: I am morally superior to you, Eddie. I know that much.
Ted: “Morally superior.” What a concept.
Let's bring it down to Earth.
Ted: Forget the light, Eddie. This story is better in the dark.
Eddie: What story?
Ted: You told me you asked Marion to tell it to you, but Marion can’t handle this story. Turns her to stone just thinking about it. Remember, you turned her to stone just asking her about it.
Eddie: I remember.
The accident. The beloved sons dead.
Ted: The snowplow cut the car almost perfectly in half.
In the back, you lived. In the front, you died.
Ted [telling Eddie about the accident]: And then Marion, she sees Timmy’s shoe in the wreckage. “Oh, look. Timmy’s shoe. He’s gonna need his shoe.” And she walks over to it, reaches down to pick it up. Ted…Ted wanted to stop her…Talk about turned to stone. I couldn’t move. I couldn’t even speak. And that was when Ted allowed his wife to discover that her younger son’s shoe was attached…to a leg. And that was when Marion realized that Timmy was gone too. And that…that is the end of the story.
Dasein in a particularly epiphanic moment.
Ted: I hired you, Eddie, because you look like Thomas. I gave her you.
Think about that. 60 times, remember?
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iambiguous
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Re: Quote of the day
Stanisław Lem from Solaris
A human being, appearances to the contrary, doesn’t create his own purposes. These are imposed by the time he’s born into; he may serve them, he may rebel against them, but the object of his service or rebellion comes from the outside. To experience complete freedom in seeking his purposes he would have to be alone, and that’s impossible, since a person who isn’t brought up among people cannot become a person.
That may well be me in a nutshell.
Solaristics, wrote Muntius, is a substitute for religion in the space age. It is faith wrapped in the cloak of science; contact, the goal for which we are striving, is as vague and obscure as communion with the saints or the coming of the Messiah.
Next up: a substitute for religion here.
I wanted to stop her; in the darkness and silence we occasionally managed to throw off our despair for a while by making each other forget.
Anyone up for that here?
There are no answers, only choices.
Too scary for you?
We have named all the stars and all the planets, even though they might already have had names of their own. What a nerve!
Next up: all the moons.
A human being is capable of taking in very few things at one time; we see only what is happening in front of us, here and now. Visualizing a simultaneous multiplicity of processes, however they may be interconnected, however they may complement one another, is beyond us. We experience this even with relatively simple phenomena. The fate of a single person can mean many things, the fate of several hundred is hard to encompass; but the history of thousands, millions, means essentially nothing at all.
It's back: the unbearable lightness of being.
A human being, appearances to the contrary, doesn’t create his own purposes. These are imposed by the time he’s born into; he may serve them, he may rebel against them, but the object of his service or rebellion comes from the outside. To experience complete freedom in seeking his purposes he would have to be alone, and that’s impossible, since a person who isn’t brought up among people cannot become a person.
That may well be me in a nutshell.
Solaristics, wrote Muntius, is a substitute for religion in the space age. It is faith wrapped in the cloak of science; contact, the goal for which we are striving, is as vague and obscure as communion with the saints or the coming of the Messiah.
Next up: a substitute for religion here.
I wanted to stop her; in the darkness and silence we occasionally managed to throw off our despair for a while by making each other forget.
Anyone up for that here?
There are no answers, only choices.
Too scary for you?
We have named all the stars and all the planets, even though they might already have had names of their own. What a nerve!
Next up: all the moons.
A human being is capable of taking in very few things at one time; we see only what is happening in front of us, here and now. Visualizing a simultaneous multiplicity of processes, however they may be interconnected, however they may complement one another, is beyond us. We experience this even with relatively simple phenomena. The fate of a single person can mean many things, the fate of several hundred is hard to encompass; but the history of thousands, millions, means essentially nothing at all.
It's back: the unbearable lightness of being.
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iambiguous
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Re: Quote of the day
When you consider all of the folks hooked on the drivel that is “reality TV” today – and how many would sell their soul to be a part of it! – you are amazed at just how prescient this film is. The writing here is spectacular. It is bust a gut funny – if you like your humor painful – while giving us some truly insightful [and scathing] pokes into the world of “show business”, the media and fame.
In fact, I've always construed Andy Warhol's prediction that in the future we will all be famous for 15 minutes to mean that 15 minutes was the extent to which anyone or anything might hold our attention.
As for the ending, I never saw it as just another one of Rupert’s pipedreams. Instead, I saw it as the director’s final kick in the gut. It shows how notoriety – good or bad – becomes the Holy Grail in our pop culture. You do whatever it takes to gain it. You get your 15 minutes [or more] by making a spectacle of yourself.
Once you are up on the stage though it all comes down to how successful you are in marketing [and then selling] yourself. Nothing…nothing…is too banal, tawdry, submental. Nowadays, it’s not so much what you become famous for but that you are famous. Period. You’re no longer just another face in the crowd. One of the indistinguishable “masses”.
Martin Scorsese said later that making this film was an “unsettling” experience, in part because of the embarrassing, bitter material of the script. Scorsese said that he and Robert De Niro may have not worked together again for seven years because making “The King of Comedy” was so emotionally grueling. Scorsese has stated that he “probably should not have made” the film. IMDb
The King of Comedy
Jerry: Alright, look pal, I gotta tell you…this is a crazy business, but it’s not unlike any other business. There are ground rules, and you don’t just walk on to a network show without experience. Now I know it’s an old, hackneyed expression, but it happens to be the truth. You’ve got to start at the bottom.
Rupert: I know. That’s where I am, at the bottom.
Jerry: Well, that’s the perfect place to start.
And then all the way to the grave for some of us.
Rupert: Jerry. I’m a little short on cash but if you don’t mind just appetizers…I’d love to take you to dinner sometime.
That's sort of funny.
Rita: I bet some of these autographs are worth money.
Rupert [showing her his own signature]: Oh, yeah. Especially this one.
Rita: Who’s this?
Rupert: Well, just take a guess.
Rita: God, it looks like a retard wrote it.
Rupert: The more scribbled the name, the bigger the fame.
Your scribbled autograph for mine?
Rupert [arguing with Masha]: What about things that I did for you that no money can buy, no money can buy? What about the time I gave you my spot! You came over there, I gave you my spot! You stood there and I let you get right next to Jerry. I waited for 8 hours for him and you went right next to him cause you were crying to me cause you wanted to get next to Jerry and you got next to him. And what about the time I gave you my last album of the Best of Jerry, what about that? It wasn’t anybody else it was me and I didn’t even ask you for money and I can’t even pay my rent! What are talking about? I live in a hovel! And you live in a townhouse! I can’t believe this girl!
Remember Travis Bickel?
[Jerry and Rupert inside Rupert’s head]
Jerry: At least once in his life, every man is a genius. I’ll tell you something, Rupe…it will be more than once in your life for you… because you’ve got it. From what I’ve heard here, yeah, you’ve got it…and you’re stuck with it. If you wanted to get rid of it, you couldn’t. It’s always going to be there. I know there’s no formula for it. I just don’t know how you do it…and I’m not curious, mind you because I want to use the material. I’m curious because I don’t know how you do it. I really have to ask you that. How do you do it?"
Rupert: I think it’s that I look at my whole life and I see the awful things in my life…and turn it into something funny. It just happens…but what about the first few one-liners?
Jerry: Were they strong enough? If they were any stronger, you’d hurt yourself. They’re marvelous, you daffy bastard. Leave them alone. They’re beautiful!
Cue Mom, right?
[Justice of the Peace George Cap inside Rupert’s head]
Dearly beloved when Rupert here was a student at the Clifton high school none of us–myself… his teachers… his classmates…dreamt that he would amount to a hill of beans. But we were wrong…and you, Rupert, you were right. And that’s why tonight before the entire nation we’d like to apologize to you personally and to beg your forgiveness for-for all the things we did to you. And we’d like to thank you personally…all of us…for the meaning you’ve given our lives. Please accept our warmest wishes, Rita and Rupert for a long and successful reign together.
[he turns to face the camera]
We’ll be back to marry them right after this word from our sponsor.
Dozens of sponsors probably.
In fact, I've always construed Andy Warhol's prediction that in the future we will all be famous for 15 minutes to mean that 15 minutes was the extent to which anyone or anything might hold our attention.
As for the ending, I never saw it as just another one of Rupert’s pipedreams. Instead, I saw it as the director’s final kick in the gut. It shows how notoriety – good or bad – becomes the Holy Grail in our pop culture. You do whatever it takes to gain it. You get your 15 minutes [or more] by making a spectacle of yourself.
Once you are up on the stage though it all comes down to how successful you are in marketing [and then selling] yourself. Nothing…nothing…is too banal, tawdry, submental. Nowadays, it’s not so much what you become famous for but that you are famous. Period. You’re no longer just another face in the crowd. One of the indistinguishable “masses”.
Martin Scorsese said later that making this film was an “unsettling” experience, in part because of the embarrassing, bitter material of the script. Scorsese said that he and Robert De Niro may have not worked together again for seven years because making “The King of Comedy” was so emotionally grueling. Scorsese has stated that he “probably should not have made” the film. IMDb
The King of Comedy
Jerry: Alright, look pal, I gotta tell you…this is a crazy business, but it’s not unlike any other business. There are ground rules, and you don’t just walk on to a network show without experience. Now I know it’s an old, hackneyed expression, but it happens to be the truth. You’ve got to start at the bottom.
Rupert: I know. That’s where I am, at the bottom.
Jerry: Well, that’s the perfect place to start.
And then all the way to the grave for some of us.
Rupert: Jerry. I’m a little short on cash but if you don’t mind just appetizers…I’d love to take you to dinner sometime.
That's sort of funny.
Rita: I bet some of these autographs are worth money.
Rupert [showing her his own signature]: Oh, yeah. Especially this one.
Rita: Who’s this?
Rupert: Well, just take a guess.
Rita: God, it looks like a retard wrote it.
Rupert: The more scribbled the name, the bigger the fame.
Your scribbled autograph for mine?
Rupert [arguing with Masha]: What about things that I did for you that no money can buy, no money can buy? What about the time I gave you my spot! You came over there, I gave you my spot! You stood there and I let you get right next to Jerry. I waited for 8 hours for him and you went right next to him cause you were crying to me cause you wanted to get next to Jerry and you got next to him. And what about the time I gave you my last album of the Best of Jerry, what about that? It wasn’t anybody else it was me and I didn’t even ask you for money and I can’t even pay my rent! What are talking about? I live in a hovel! And you live in a townhouse! I can’t believe this girl!
Remember Travis Bickel?
[Jerry and Rupert inside Rupert’s head]
Jerry: At least once in his life, every man is a genius. I’ll tell you something, Rupe…it will be more than once in your life for you… because you’ve got it. From what I’ve heard here, yeah, you’ve got it…and you’re stuck with it. If you wanted to get rid of it, you couldn’t. It’s always going to be there. I know there’s no formula for it. I just don’t know how you do it…and I’m not curious, mind you because I want to use the material. I’m curious because I don’t know how you do it. I really have to ask you that. How do you do it?"
Rupert: I think it’s that I look at my whole life and I see the awful things in my life…and turn it into something funny. It just happens…but what about the first few one-liners?
Jerry: Were they strong enough? If they were any stronger, you’d hurt yourself. They’re marvelous, you daffy bastard. Leave them alone. They’re beautiful!
Cue Mom, right?
[Justice of the Peace George Cap inside Rupert’s head]
Dearly beloved when Rupert here was a student at the Clifton high school none of us–myself… his teachers… his classmates…dreamt that he would amount to a hill of beans. But we were wrong…and you, Rupert, you were right. And that’s why tonight before the entire nation we’d like to apologize to you personally and to beg your forgiveness for-for all the things we did to you. And we’d like to thank you personally…all of us…for the meaning you’ve given our lives. Please accept our warmest wishes, Rita and Rupert for a long and successful reign together.
[he turns to face the camera]
We’ll be back to marry them right after this word from our sponsor.
Dozens of sponsors probably.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 11317
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: Quote of the day
Logic
"I know that if you don't look for an alternative, Sophos, you certainly won't find one.” Megan Whalen Turner
An alternative for what though?
“His was not a small mind bothered by logic and consistency.” Robert A. Heinlein
Welcome aboard!
“An argument in apologetics, when actually used in dialogue, is an extension of the arguer. The arguer's tone, sincerity, care, concern, listening, and respect matter as much as his or her logic -- probably more." Peter Kreeft
Including dasein of course.
“When examining evidence relevant to a given belief, people are inclined to see what they expect to see, and conclude what they expect to conclude. Information that is consistent with our pre-existing beliefs is often accepted at face value, whereas evidence that contradicts them is critically scrutinized and discounted. Our beliefs may thus be less responsive than they should to the implications of new information” Thomas Gilovich
Let's promise each other this will never happen here, okay?
“Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.” Ayn Rand
Talk about a world of words!
“Logic is something the mind has created to conceal its timidity, a hocus-pocus designed to give formal validity to conclusions we are willing to accept if everybody else in our set will too.” Carl Lotus Becker
Cue the objectivists?
"I know that if you don't look for an alternative, Sophos, you certainly won't find one.” Megan Whalen Turner
An alternative for what though?
“His was not a small mind bothered by logic and consistency.” Robert A. Heinlein
Welcome aboard!
“An argument in apologetics, when actually used in dialogue, is an extension of the arguer. The arguer's tone, sincerity, care, concern, listening, and respect matter as much as his or her logic -- probably more." Peter Kreeft
Including dasein of course.
“When examining evidence relevant to a given belief, people are inclined to see what they expect to see, and conclude what they expect to conclude. Information that is consistent with our pre-existing beliefs is often accepted at face value, whereas evidence that contradicts them is critically scrutinized and discounted. Our beliefs may thus be less responsive than they should to the implications of new information” Thomas Gilovich
Let's promise each other this will never happen here, okay?
“Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.” Ayn Rand
Talk about a world of words!
“Logic is something the mind has created to conceal its timidity, a hocus-pocus designed to give formal validity to conclusions we are willing to accept if everybody else in our set will too.” Carl Lotus Becker
Cue the objectivists?
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iambiguous
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Re: Quote of the day
The King of Comedy
Jerry [to Rupert]: Did anyone ever tell you you’re a moron?
Other than Rita he means.
Jonno [to Jerry]: His name is, uh, uh, Pumpkin. Pumpkin, yes. Do you know a name Pumpkin?
Well, sort of, Jonno.
Jerry: I have a life, OK?
Rupert: I have a life, too.
Jerry: That’s not my responsibility!
Rupert: It is when you tell me to call you…
Jerry: I told you to call to get rid of you!
Rupert: To get rid of me?
Jerry: That’s right. If I didn’t tell you that we’d still be standing on the steps at my apartment!
That's probably true.
Rupert: So alright I made a mistake.
Jerry: So did Hitler!
He borrowed that from Woody, of course.
Rupert: I just want to say one more thing, Jerry. I’m glad what you did to me today…because now I know I can’t rely on anybody and I shouldn’t rely on anybody.
Jerry: Right.
Rupert: I’m going to work 10 times harder…and I’m going to be 10 times more famous than you.
Jerry: Then you’re gonna have idiots like you plaguing your life!
Or, as we call them here, pinheads.
Detective: First of all, we don’t know whether we’re dealing with kidnappers or terrorists.
TV Executive: Terrorists?
Detective: Terrorists. You might have this man go on the air deliver a coded message and very possibly 50 people… around the country would lose their lives.
TV Executive: You’re out of your mind!
Either that or from the Deep State.
Jerry [to Rupert]: Did anyone ever tell you you’re a moron?
Other than Rita he means.
Jonno [to Jerry]: His name is, uh, uh, Pumpkin. Pumpkin, yes. Do you know a name Pumpkin?
Well, sort of, Jonno.
Jerry: I have a life, OK?
Rupert: I have a life, too.
Jerry: That’s not my responsibility!
Rupert: It is when you tell me to call you…
Jerry: I told you to call to get rid of you!
Rupert: To get rid of me?
Jerry: That’s right. If I didn’t tell you that we’d still be standing on the steps at my apartment!
That's probably true.
Rupert: So alright I made a mistake.
Jerry: So did Hitler!
He borrowed that from Woody, of course.
Rupert: I just want to say one more thing, Jerry. I’m glad what you did to me today…because now I know I can’t rely on anybody and I shouldn’t rely on anybody.
Jerry: Right.
Rupert: I’m going to work 10 times harder…and I’m going to be 10 times more famous than you.
Jerry: Then you’re gonna have idiots like you plaguing your life!
Or, as we call them here, pinheads.
Detective: First of all, we don’t know whether we’re dealing with kidnappers or terrorists.
TV Executive: Terrorists?
Detective: Terrorists. You might have this man go on the air deliver a coded message and very possibly 50 people… around the country would lose their lives.
TV Executive: You’re out of your mind!
Either that or from the Deep State.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 11317
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: Quote of the day
The King of Comedy
Masha [to Jerry]: I just want to dance. I want to, like, put on some Shirelles. I want to be black!
Or, these days, just call yourself black?
Next up: the monologue.? I actually thought it was pretty funny. Especially once he got going.
Rupert: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Let me introduce myself. My name is Rupert Pupkin. I was born in Clifton, New Jersey…which was not at that time a federal offense. Is there anyone here from Clifton? Oh, good. We can all relax now. I’d like to begin by saying my parents were too poor to afford me a childhood. But the fact is that no one is allowed to be too poor in Clifton. Once you fall below a certain level they exile you to Passaic. My parents did put the first two down payments on my childhood. Don’t get me wrong, but they did also return me to the hospital as defective. But, like everyone else I grew up in large part thanks to my mother. If she were only here today I’d say, “Hey, ma, what are you doing here? You’ve been dead for nine years!” But seriously, you should’ve seen my mother. She was wonderful. Blonde, beautiful, intelligent, alcoholic. We used to drink milk together after school. Mine was homogenized. Hers was loaded. Once they picked her up for speeding. They clocked her doing 55. All right, but in our garage? And when they tested her they found out that her alcohol had 2% blood. Ah, but we used to joke together, mom and me…until the tears would stroll down her face and she would throw up! Yeah, and who would clean it up? Not dad. He was too busy down at O’Grady’s throwing up on his own. Yeah. In fact, until I was 13 I thought throwing up was a sign of maturity. While the other kids were off in the woods sneaking cigarettes I was hiding behind the house with my fingers down my throat. The only problem was I never got anywhere…until one day my father caught me. Just as he was giving me a final kick in the stomach for luck I managed to heave all over his new shoes! “That’s it”, I thought. “I’ve made it. I’m finally a man!” But as it turned out, I was wrong. That was the only attention my father ever gave me. Yeah, he was usually too busy out in the park playing ball with my sister Rose. But today, I must say thanks to those many hours of practice my sister Rose has grown into a fine man. Me, I wasn’t especially interested in athletics. The only exercise I ever got was when the other kids picked on me. Yeah, they used to beat me up once a week…usually Tuesday. And after a while the school worked it into the curriculum. And if you knocked me out, you got extra credit. There was this one kid, poor kid… he was afraid of me. I used to tell him, “Hit me, hit me. What’s the matter with you? Don’t you want to graduate?” Hey, I was the youngest kid in the history of the school to graduate in traction. But, you know, my only real interest right from the beginning, was show business. Even as a young man, I began at the very top collecting autographs. Now, a lot of you are probably wondering why Jerry isn’t with us tonight. Well, I’ll tell you. The fact is he’s tied up. I’m the one who tied him. Well, I know you think I’m joking… but, believe me, that’s the only way I could break into show business…by hijacking Jerry Langford. Right now, Jerry is strapped to a chair somewhere in the middle of the city. Go ahead, laugh. Thank you. I appreciate it. But the fact is, I’m here. Now, tomorrow you’ll know I wasn’t kidding and you’ll think I was crazy. But, look, I figure it this way. Better to be king for a night than schmuck for a lifetime. Thank you. Thank you.
So, what do you think?
Rupert: You didn’t like my act?
Detective: No.
Rupert: No?
Detective: Matter of fact I’m looking for the guy that wrote the material. I’ll pick him up and take him along with you.
Rupert: I wrote the material. I disagree with you. I thought they were very good jokes.
Detective: If you wrote that material I got one piece of advice for you. Throw yourself on your knees in front of the judge and beg for mercy.
Of course, that's scripted too. These things can get tricky.
TV Announcer: In what has to rank as the most bizarre debut in recent times a self-styled comedian named Rupert Pupkin appeared on the Jerry Langford Show. There’s no doubt the incident has made Rupert Pupkin a household word. Pupkin’s performance has been viewed by a record 87 million American households.
That'll do it.
Announcer: Rupert Pupkin, kidnapping king of comedy was sentenced to six years imprisonment at the government’s minimum security facility in Allenwood, Pennsylvania, for his part in the abduction of talk show host Jerry Langford. On the anniversary of his appearance on the show Pupkin told a gathering of reporters he still considers Jerry Langford his friend and mentor. He reported he had been spending his time writing his memoirs, which have been purchased by a leading publishing house for in excess of $1 million.
Yo, Rita!
Announcer: Rupert Pupkin was released today from Allenwood after serving 2 years and 9 months of a six-year sentence. Hundreds greeted the -37 year-old comedian and author…among them his new agent and manager David Ball who announced King For A Night, Pupkin’s best-selling autobiography, will appear as a major motion picture. Pupkin said he used his stay at Allenwood to sharpen his material. He said he and his people were weighing attractive offers and he looked forward to resuming his show business career.
Of course, what passed for caricature back then probably wouldn't go far enough today.
Announcer: And now, ladies and gentlemen the man we’ve all been waiting for…and waiting for. Would you welcome home please television’s brightest new star…The legendary, inspirational, the one and only king of comedy…Ladies and gentlemen, Rupert Pupkin!
Uh, ain’t that pretty much how it works now?
Masha [to Jerry]: I just want to dance. I want to, like, put on some Shirelles. I want to be black!
Or, these days, just call yourself black?
Next up: the monologue.? I actually thought it was pretty funny. Especially once he got going.
Rupert: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Let me introduce myself. My name is Rupert Pupkin. I was born in Clifton, New Jersey…which was not at that time a federal offense. Is there anyone here from Clifton? Oh, good. We can all relax now. I’d like to begin by saying my parents were too poor to afford me a childhood. But the fact is that no one is allowed to be too poor in Clifton. Once you fall below a certain level they exile you to Passaic. My parents did put the first two down payments on my childhood. Don’t get me wrong, but they did also return me to the hospital as defective. But, like everyone else I grew up in large part thanks to my mother. If she were only here today I’d say, “Hey, ma, what are you doing here? You’ve been dead for nine years!” But seriously, you should’ve seen my mother. She was wonderful. Blonde, beautiful, intelligent, alcoholic. We used to drink milk together after school. Mine was homogenized. Hers was loaded. Once they picked her up for speeding. They clocked her doing 55. All right, but in our garage? And when they tested her they found out that her alcohol had 2% blood. Ah, but we used to joke together, mom and me…until the tears would stroll down her face and she would throw up! Yeah, and who would clean it up? Not dad. He was too busy down at O’Grady’s throwing up on his own. Yeah. In fact, until I was 13 I thought throwing up was a sign of maturity. While the other kids were off in the woods sneaking cigarettes I was hiding behind the house with my fingers down my throat. The only problem was I never got anywhere…until one day my father caught me. Just as he was giving me a final kick in the stomach for luck I managed to heave all over his new shoes! “That’s it”, I thought. “I’ve made it. I’m finally a man!” But as it turned out, I was wrong. That was the only attention my father ever gave me. Yeah, he was usually too busy out in the park playing ball with my sister Rose. But today, I must say thanks to those many hours of practice my sister Rose has grown into a fine man. Me, I wasn’t especially interested in athletics. The only exercise I ever got was when the other kids picked on me. Yeah, they used to beat me up once a week…usually Tuesday. And after a while the school worked it into the curriculum. And if you knocked me out, you got extra credit. There was this one kid, poor kid… he was afraid of me. I used to tell him, “Hit me, hit me. What’s the matter with you? Don’t you want to graduate?” Hey, I was the youngest kid in the history of the school to graduate in traction. But, you know, my only real interest right from the beginning, was show business. Even as a young man, I began at the very top collecting autographs. Now, a lot of you are probably wondering why Jerry isn’t with us tonight. Well, I’ll tell you. The fact is he’s tied up. I’m the one who tied him. Well, I know you think I’m joking… but, believe me, that’s the only way I could break into show business…by hijacking Jerry Langford. Right now, Jerry is strapped to a chair somewhere in the middle of the city. Go ahead, laugh. Thank you. I appreciate it. But the fact is, I’m here. Now, tomorrow you’ll know I wasn’t kidding and you’ll think I was crazy. But, look, I figure it this way. Better to be king for a night than schmuck for a lifetime. Thank you. Thank you.
So, what do you think?
Rupert: You didn’t like my act?
Detective: No.
Rupert: No?
Detective: Matter of fact I’m looking for the guy that wrote the material. I’ll pick him up and take him along with you.
Rupert: I wrote the material. I disagree with you. I thought they were very good jokes.
Detective: If you wrote that material I got one piece of advice for you. Throw yourself on your knees in front of the judge and beg for mercy.
Of course, that's scripted too. These things can get tricky.
TV Announcer: In what has to rank as the most bizarre debut in recent times a self-styled comedian named Rupert Pupkin appeared on the Jerry Langford Show. There’s no doubt the incident has made Rupert Pupkin a household word. Pupkin’s performance has been viewed by a record 87 million American households.
That'll do it.
Announcer: Rupert Pupkin, kidnapping king of comedy was sentenced to six years imprisonment at the government’s minimum security facility in Allenwood, Pennsylvania, for his part in the abduction of talk show host Jerry Langford. On the anniversary of his appearance on the show Pupkin told a gathering of reporters he still considers Jerry Langford his friend and mentor. He reported he had been spending his time writing his memoirs, which have been purchased by a leading publishing house for in excess of $1 million.
Yo, Rita!
Announcer: Rupert Pupkin was released today from Allenwood after serving 2 years and 9 months of a six-year sentence. Hundreds greeted the -37 year-old comedian and author…among them his new agent and manager David Ball who announced King For A Night, Pupkin’s best-selling autobiography, will appear as a major motion picture. Pupkin said he used his stay at Allenwood to sharpen his material. He said he and his people were weighing attractive offers and he looked forward to resuming his show business career.
Of course, what passed for caricature back then probably wouldn't go far enough today.
Announcer: And now, ladies and gentlemen the man we’ve all been waiting for…and waiting for. Would you welcome home please television’s brightest new star…The legendary, inspirational, the one and only king of comedy…Ladies and gentlemen, Rupert Pupkin!
Uh, ain’t that pretty much how it works now?
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iambiguous
- Posts: 11317
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: Quote of the day
This is one of the first films in which it really began to dawn on me just how much more interesting [fascinating] the “bad guys” can be portrayed up there on the silver screen. And I’m sure the reactions of many were more than just a little discomfitting.
We don’t want to be this person. And we sure as shit don’t want to meet this person. But there is something about him that makes us probe a litte deeper into human reality. There seems to be so much more than what we can capture wholly in an “analysis”.
After all, wouldn’t it be rather interesting to engage someone like him in discussions here?
And almost like another character in the film is Gumb’s basement. It’s one of the creepiest goddamn places ever filmed.
"Buffalo Bill is the combination of three real life serial killers: Ed Gein, who skinned his victims; Ted Bundy, who used the cast on his hand as bait to make women get into his van; and Gary Heidnick, who kept women he kidnapped in a pit in his basement." IMDb
Then of course this part:
"Upon its release, The Silence of the Lambs was criticized by members of the LGBT community for its portrayal of Buffalo Bill as bisexual and transsexual. In response to the critiques, Demme replied that Buffalo Bill “wasn’t a gay character. He was a tormented man who hated himself and wished he was a woman because that would have made him as far away from himself as he possibly could be.” Demme added that he “came to realize that there is a tremendous absence of positive gay characters in movies.” wiki
The Silence of the Lambs
Crawford: And you’re to tell him nothing personal, Starling. Believe me, you don’t want Hannibal Lecter inside your head.
Or, here, Satyr and his ilk.
Crawford: Just do your job, but never forget what he is.
Starling: And what is that?
[cut to Clarice’s first trip to the psychiatric prison]
Chilton: Oh, he’s a monster. Pure psychopath. So rare to capture one alive. From a research point of view, Lecter is our most prized asset.
On the other hand, to the extent someone is psychopathic, are not his or her behaviors pretty much "beyond their control"?
Lecter: Why do you think he removes their skins, Agent Starling?
[sarcastically]
Lecter: Enthrall me with your acumen.
Starling: It excites him. Most serial killers keep some sort of trophies from their victims.
Lecter: I didn’t.
Starling: No. No, you ate yours.
Then those trips to the toilet.
Lecter: You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition’s given you some length of bone, but you’re not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you’ve tried so desperately to shed: pure West Virginia. What is your father, dear? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You know how quickly the boys found you…all those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars while you could only dream of getting out…getting anywhere…getting all the way to the FBI.
Starling: You see a lot, Doctor. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don’t you - why don’t you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you’re afraid to.
Note:
"Jodie Foster claims that during the first meeting between Lecter and Starling, Anthony Hopkins’s mocking of her southern accent was not rehearsed and that Hopkins improvised it on the spot. Foster’s reaction of horror was totally genuine, as she felt personally attacked, though she later thanked Hopkins for generating such an honest reaction." IMDb
Starling: If the beetle moves one of your men, does that still count?
Pilcher: Course it counts. How do you play?
No, really, what are the official rules here?
Roden [Upon learning where the Death’s-Head Moth came from]: You mean this is like a clue from a real murder case? Coolo!
Pilcher [to Clarice]: Just ignore him, he’s not a PhD.
Actually, I'm inclined to agree.
We don’t want to be this person. And we sure as shit don’t want to meet this person. But there is something about him that makes us probe a litte deeper into human reality. There seems to be so much more than what we can capture wholly in an “analysis”.
After all, wouldn’t it be rather interesting to engage someone like him in discussions here?
And almost like another character in the film is Gumb’s basement. It’s one of the creepiest goddamn places ever filmed.
"Buffalo Bill is the combination of three real life serial killers: Ed Gein, who skinned his victims; Ted Bundy, who used the cast on his hand as bait to make women get into his van; and Gary Heidnick, who kept women he kidnapped in a pit in his basement." IMDb
Then of course this part:
"Upon its release, The Silence of the Lambs was criticized by members of the LGBT community for its portrayal of Buffalo Bill as bisexual and transsexual. In response to the critiques, Demme replied that Buffalo Bill “wasn’t a gay character. He was a tormented man who hated himself and wished he was a woman because that would have made him as far away from himself as he possibly could be.” Demme added that he “came to realize that there is a tremendous absence of positive gay characters in movies.” wiki
The Silence of the Lambs
Crawford: And you’re to tell him nothing personal, Starling. Believe me, you don’t want Hannibal Lecter inside your head.
Or, here, Satyr and his ilk.
Crawford: Just do your job, but never forget what he is.
Starling: And what is that?
[cut to Clarice’s first trip to the psychiatric prison]
Chilton: Oh, he’s a monster. Pure psychopath. So rare to capture one alive. From a research point of view, Lecter is our most prized asset.
On the other hand, to the extent someone is psychopathic, are not his or her behaviors pretty much "beyond their control"?
Lecter: Why do you think he removes their skins, Agent Starling?
[sarcastically]
Lecter: Enthrall me with your acumen.
Starling: It excites him. Most serial killers keep some sort of trophies from their victims.
Lecter: I didn’t.
Starling: No. No, you ate yours.
Then those trips to the toilet.
Lecter: You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition’s given you some length of bone, but you’re not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you’ve tried so desperately to shed: pure West Virginia. What is your father, dear? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You know how quickly the boys found you…all those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars while you could only dream of getting out…getting anywhere…getting all the way to the FBI.
Starling: You see a lot, Doctor. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don’t you - why don’t you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you’re afraid to.
Note:
"Jodie Foster claims that during the first meeting between Lecter and Starling, Anthony Hopkins’s mocking of her southern accent was not rehearsed and that Hopkins improvised it on the spot. Foster’s reaction of horror was totally genuine, as she felt personally attacked, though she later thanked Hopkins for generating such an honest reaction." IMDb
Starling: If the beetle moves one of your men, does that still count?
Pilcher: Course it counts. How do you play?
No, really, what are the official rules here?
Roden [Upon learning where the Death’s-Head Moth came from]: You mean this is like a clue from a real murder case? Coolo!
Pilcher [to Clarice]: Just ignore him, he’s not a PhD.
Actually, I'm inclined to agree.
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promethean75
- Posts: 7113
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: Quote of the day
"What do you think of the following argument: 1. Everything is either dependent or self-existent. 2. Not everything can be dependent. 3. Therefore, there is something self-existent?"
Watch Rosa L work y'all:
"The conclusion of this argument, given the way it has been worded, is in fact this:
3. Therefore, everything is self-existent.
That follows from the wording of the first premise:
Everything is either dependent or self-existent.
But the questioner needs the following premise in its place for the argument to proceed as imagined:
1a. Everything is either dependent or something is self-existent.
However, there is no good reason to accept the truth of 1a. In that case, the argument, even as revised, can’t constitute a proof.
[While a valid argument can have false premises, a proof has to have true premises.]
Anyway, the term ‘self-existent’ is unexplained, and possibly incapable of being explained (in non-question-begging terms), so no argument can proceed (again, even with the above suggested revision) until it has been made perspicuous. Without that, the argument isn’t even valid.
And good luck with that one! Theists have been trying to explain ‘self-existence’ (in non-question-begging terms) for countless centuries and has so far failed."
Bro that's the first thing i thought when i saw that argument. I was like 'ffs, this argument isn't perspicuous'.
Watch Rosa L work y'all:
"The conclusion of this argument, given the way it has been worded, is in fact this:
3. Therefore, everything is self-existent.
That follows from the wording of the first premise:
Everything is either dependent or self-existent.
But the questioner needs the following premise in its place for the argument to proceed as imagined:
1a. Everything is either dependent or something is self-existent.
However, there is no good reason to accept the truth of 1a. In that case, the argument, even as revised, can’t constitute a proof.
[While a valid argument can have false premises, a proof has to have true premises.]
Anyway, the term ‘self-existent’ is unexplained, and possibly incapable of being explained (in non-question-begging terms), so no argument can proceed (again, even with the above suggested revision) until it has been made perspicuous. Without that, the argument isn’t even valid.
And good luck with that one! Theists have been trying to explain ‘self-existence’ (in non-question-begging terms) for countless centuries and has so far failed."
Bro that's the first thing i thought when i saw that argument. I was like 'ffs, this argument isn't perspicuous'.
Re: Quote of the day
Why not just start out by just saying something like like, 'Some things are dependent, while some thing/s is/are not'?promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 am "What do you think of the following argument: 1. Everything is either dependent or self-existent. 2. Not everything can be dependent. 3. Therefore, there is something self-existent?"
I think it is irrational.
If one has already concluded that there is some thing, or some things, that is, or are, self-existent, then why not just state that?
But, I thought 'the conclusion' was what you previously said and wrote, and not what you just said, and wrote.promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 am Watch Rosa L work y'all:
"The conclusion of this argument, given the way it has been worded, is in fact this:
3. Therefore, everything is self-existent.
How, in your imagination, can the words, 'Therefore, there is something self-existent?' suddenly become, 'Therefore, everything is self-existent'?
Do the words, 'something', and, 'everything', mean the exact same thing, to you?
That does not follow, to me, from the wording of the first premise, at all.
To me, the words of the first premise are just a Falsehood, and thus very misleading.
Obviously, everything does not have to be either of those two things.
Some things may well be, while, some things may not be. So, the first premise is False, from the outset.
Why do you say and claim this?
Do you believe this to be true?
Also, do you believe things are true just because someone has called them 'a premise'?
The first premise above here was False and Wrong from the very beginning.
Talk about Truly over complicating and making seemingly hard some thing as Truly simple and easy as above here.promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 am But the questioner needs the following premise in its place for the argument to proceed as imagined:
1a. Everything is either dependent or something is self-existent.
However, there is no good reason to accept the truth of 1a. In that case, the argument, even as revised, can’t constitute a proof.
[While a valid argument can have false premises, a proof has to have true premises.]
Anyway, the term ‘self-existent’ is unexplained, and possibly incapable of being explained (in non-question-begging terms), so no argument can proceed (again, even with the above suggested revision) until it has been made perspicuous. Without that, the argument isn’t even valid.
And good luck with that one! Theists have been trying to explain ‘self-existence’ (in non-question-begging terms) for countless centuries and has so far failed."
Bro that's the first thing i thought when i saw that argument. I was like 'ffs, this argument isn't perspicuous'.
That there is A 'Thing' recognizing that there are thoughts existing is, literally, 'Self-evident'. 'This Thing' is 'Self-existent', and, this is an irrefutable proved Truth.
That there are other 'things', which are dependent upon this 'Self-existent' 'Thing' is also, blatantly, obviously True.
Therefore, there are some things that are dependent, while there is at least One Thing that is 'Self-existent'.
Re: Quote of the day
We knowthat everything is self existent is fale a posteriori. SO we would have to adjust any argument that says otherwise.promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 am "What do you think of the following argument: 1. Everything is either dependent or self-existent. 2. Not everything can be dependent. 3. Therefore, there is something self-existent?"
Watch Rosa L work y'all:
"The conclusion of this argument, given the way it has been worded, is in fact this:
3. Therefore, everything is self-existent.
That follows from the wording of the first premise:
Everything is either dependent or self-existent.
But the questioner needs the following premise in its place for the argument to proceed as imagined:
1a. Everything is either dependent or something is self-existent.
However, there is no good reason to accept the truth of 1a. In that case, the argument, even as revised, can’t constitute a proof.
[While a valid argument can have false premises, a proof has to have true premises.]
Anyway, the term ‘self-existent’ is unexplained, and possibly incapable of being explained (in non-question-begging terms), so no argument can proceed (again, even with the above suggested revision) until it has been made perspicuous. Without that, the argument isn’t even valid.
And good luck with that one! Theists have been trying to explain ‘self-existence’ (in non-question-begging terms) for countless centuries and has so far failed."
Bro that's the first thing i thought when i saw that argument. I was like 'ffs, this argument isn't perspicuous'.
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attofishpi
- Posts: 13319
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
- Location: Orion Spur
- Contact:
Re: Quote of the day
I thinks it's bollocks.promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 am "What do you think of the following argument: 1. Everything is either dependent or self-existent. 2. Not everything can be dependent. 3. Therefore, there is something self-existent?"
How about this:
1. Everything is dependent.
2. Everything can be dependent.
3. Therefore within parameters set by dependence things can have some form of self-existence.
4. Thus free will within said parameters can exist.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 11317
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: Quote of the day
The Silence of the Lambs
Roden: Sphingid ceratonia, maybe.
[cuts open cocoon]
Roden: Agent Starling, meet Mr. Acherontia styx.
Pilcher: Weird.
Roden: Better known to his friends as the Death’s-head moth.
Starling: Where does it come from?
Roden: It’s strange. They only live in Asia.
Pilcher: Here they’d have to be raised from imported eggs.
Roden: Somebody grew this guy. Fed him honey and nightshade, kept him warm. Somebody loved him.
Of course, what he'd really like to do is to feed Starling some honey and nightshade.
Starling: Why does he place the moths there, Doctor?
Lector: The significance of the moth is change. Caterpillar into chrysalis, or pupa, and from thence into beauty. Our Billy wants to change, too.
Starling: There’s no correlation between transsexualism and violence. Transsexuals are very passive.
Lector: Clever girl.
But is she clever enough? Alas, that's scripted too.
Lecter: Look for severe childhood disturbances associated with violence. Our Billy wasn’t born a criminal, Clarice. He was made one through years of systematic abuse. Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.
Although it's practically all normal these days, right VT.
Gumb: It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it’s told.
Of course, he had his reasons.
Gumb: Now it places the lotion in the basket. Put the lotion in the basket…PUT THE FUCKING LOTION IN THE BASKET!
In and out of character, let's say.
Chilton: You still think you’re going to walk on some beach and see the birdies? I don’t think so. They scammed you, Hannibal.
Let's fast-forward to his fate.
Roden: Sphingid ceratonia, maybe.
[cuts open cocoon]
Roden: Agent Starling, meet Mr. Acherontia styx.
Pilcher: Weird.
Roden: Better known to his friends as the Death’s-head moth.
Starling: Where does it come from?
Roden: It’s strange. They only live in Asia.
Pilcher: Here they’d have to be raised from imported eggs.
Roden: Somebody grew this guy. Fed him honey and nightshade, kept him warm. Somebody loved him.
Of course, what he'd really like to do is to feed Starling some honey and nightshade.
Starling: Why does he place the moths there, Doctor?
Lector: The significance of the moth is change. Caterpillar into chrysalis, or pupa, and from thence into beauty. Our Billy wants to change, too.
Starling: There’s no correlation between transsexualism and violence. Transsexuals are very passive.
Lector: Clever girl.
But is she clever enough? Alas, that's scripted too.
Lecter: Look for severe childhood disturbances associated with violence. Our Billy wasn’t born a criminal, Clarice. He was made one through years of systematic abuse. Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.
Although it's practically all normal these days, right VT.
Gumb: It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it’s told.
Of course, he had his reasons.
Gumb: Now it places the lotion in the basket. Put the lotion in the basket…PUT THE FUCKING LOTION IN THE BASKET!
In and out of character, let's say.
Chilton: You still think you’re going to walk on some beach and see the birdies? I don’t think so. They scammed you, Hannibal.
Let's fast-forward to his fate.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 11317
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: Quote of the day
Epistemology
“Our individual consciousnesses were sieves of the divine. We could only know what our minds could encompass safely.” Louise Erdrich
Objectivism!
“We’re starting to behave as if we’ve reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the sensation of certitude it generates is paralyzing.” Chuck Klosterman
Objectivism!
“He who has a true idea simultaneously knows that he has a true idea, and cannot doubt of the truth of the thing perceived.” Baruch Spinoza
Objectivism!
Or determinism?
“What the pragmatist has his pragmatism for is to be able to say, Here is a definition and it does not differ at all from your confusedly apprehended conception because there is no practical difference.” Charles Sanders Peirce
We'll need a context, of course.
“A man is partially convinced because he has found this or that proof of the thing, and he can expound it. But a man is not really convinced of a philosophical theory when he finds that something proves it. He is only really convinced when he finds that everything proves it.” G.K. Chesterton
Yep, that means coming down out of the clouds, I'm afraid.
“I have had my results for a long time: but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them.” Carl Friedrich Gauss
If you get his drift.
“Our individual consciousnesses were sieves of the divine. We could only know what our minds could encompass safely.” Louise Erdrich
Objectivism!
“We’re starting to behave as if we’ve reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the sensation of certitude it generates is paralyzing.” Chuck Klosterman
Objectivism!
“He who has a true idea simultaneously knows that he has a true idea, and cannot doubt of the truth of the thing perceived.” Baruch Spinoza
Objectivism!
Or determinism?
“What the pragmatist has his pragmatism for is to be able to say, Here is a definition and it does not differ at all from your confusedly apprehended conception because there is no practical difference.” Charles Sanders Peirce
We'll need a context, of course.
“A man is partially convinced because he has found this or that proof of the thing, and he can expound it. But a man is not really convinced of a philosophical theory when he finds that something proves it. He is only really convinced when he finds that everything proves it.” G.K. Chesterton
Yep, that means coming down out of the clouds, I'm afraid.
“I have had my results for a long time: but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them.” Carl Friedrich Gauss
If you get his drift.