Theism and Moral Realism are separate concepts

[Immanuel Can]

But anyone is completely free to call himself a Christian,...

Not truthfully. Not according to Christ Himself.

Can you remember what point I was trying to make?

You were objecting to me questioning the worthiness of Torquemada as a "Christian." Kind of a hard case to make, actually.

Was I really? Strange, because I didn't even know who he was until I googled him.

Well, truth be told, you might just have been nitpicking for fun. Who can tell?

[Immanuel Can]

Karl Marx is the new Satan!

Well...now that you mention it...

Here's the evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8ftgR9jK4

[Harbal]

Not truthfully. Not according to Christ Himself.


You were objecting to me questioning the worthiness of Torquemada as a "Christian." Kind of a hard case to make, actually.

Was I really? Strange, because I didn't even know who he was until I googled him.

Well, truth be told, you might just have been nitpicking for fun. Who can tell?

Truth be told, maybe I was.

[Alexiev]

Karl Marx is the new Satan!

Well...now that you mention it...

Here's the evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8ftgR9jK4

I suspected you got most of your information from YouTube. Thanks for confirming.

[henry quirk]

Let's do a specific case, one that is from reality.

A kid shoots up a school. He does so, because he wants the school or his peers to feel the pain he feels as a rejected, despised, overlooked person...which he genuinely feels he is. So he selects the method most likely to gain him instantaneous recognition as angry, and to generate instantly the pain he thinks he feels every day. His desire and his methods are perfectly reconciled. And subjectively, it's exactly what he wants to do, and exactly the means most likely to produce it, as he sees things, subjectively.

Why shouldn't he?

Becuz those lives he wants to hurt, to snuff out, don't belong to him.

[henry quirk]

So, back to the OP.

If Theism and Moral Realism "are separate concepts," as the OP suggests, then Moral Realism would have to be a concept that stands on its own two feet, independent of Theism.

Can anybody give an account of Moral Realism that DOES NOT require any kind of Theism as a prerequisite?

Of course not. Note: no one is trying to. Why? Cuz the lot of 'em don't believe in God or moral reality (never mind that each & every one of 'em lives as a moral realist).

[Immanuel Can]

Karl Marx is the new Satan!

Well...now that you mention it...

Here's the evidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8ftgR9jK4

I suspected you got most of your information from YouTube. Thanks for confirming.

And yet...it's a conversation between two recognized experts in the field, quoting directly from Marx. And...you can't be bothered.

So...*shrug*

[Immanuel Can]

Let's do a specific case, one that is from reality.

A kid shoots up a school. He does so, because he wants the school or his peers to feel the pain he feels as a rejected, despised, overlooked person...which he genuinely feels he is. So he selects the method most likely to gain him instantaneous recognition as angry, and to generate instantly the pain he thinks he feels every day. His desire and his methods are perfectly reconciled. And subjectively, it's exactly what he wants to do, and exactly the means most likely to produce it, as he sees things, subjectively.

Why shouldn't he?

Becuz those lives he wants to hurt, to snuff out, don't belong to him.

What is "belong," in a secular world? Nothing intrinsically "belongs" to anybody else -- it's just a contingent fact of power that one holds possession of anything at the moment, not any case of natural or divine right. To say a kid's life "belongs" to him means nothing more than "he has the power to insist it continues." And those kids don't have the power to insist they don't get shot, so that's a moot point in this case.

So again: why shouldn't he?

[Immanuel Can]

So, back to the OP.

If Theism and Moral Realism "are separate concepts," as the OP suggests, then Moral Realism would have to be a concept that stands on its own two feet, independent of Theism.

Can anybody give an account of Moral Realism that DOES NOT require any kind of Theism as a prerequisite?

Of course not. Note: no one is trying to. Why? Cuz the lot of 'em don't believe in God or moral reality (never mind that each & every one of 'em lives as a moral realist).

[henry quirk]

Let's do a specific case, one that is from reality.

A kid shoots up a school. He does so, because he wants the school or his peers to feel the pain he feels as a rejected, despised, overlooked person...which he genuinely feels he is. So he selects the method most likely to gain him instantaneous recognition as angry, and to generate instantly the pain he thinks he feels every day. His desire and his methods are perfectly reconciled. And subjectively, it's exactly what he wants to do, and exactly the means most likely to produce it, as he sees things, subjectively.

Why shouldn't he?

Becuz those lives he wants to hurt, to snuff out, don't belong to him.

What is "belong," in a secular world? Nothing intrinsically "belongs" to anybody else -- it's just a contingent fact of power that one holds possession of anything at the moment, not any case of natural or divine right. To say a kid's life "belongs" to him means nothing more than "he has the power to insist it continues." And those kids don't have the power to insist they don't get shot, so that's a moot point in this case.

So again: why shouldn't he?

We, of course, don't live in a secular, amoral, world. Those lives lil Jimmy Weepy-Bottom plans on rubbin' out don't belong to him. He has no right to any of 'em. And, of course, it matters not one whit that any of those folks Jimmy offs can't defend themselves: might does not make right.

[Immanuel Can]

lil Jimmy Weepy-Bottom

Okay...now...I'm dying...

...might does not make right.

Darn straight.

But I understand why secularists and Subjectivists have to think it does: what else is there? There's us...here by pure accident, by a convulsion of accidental forces...and now there are physics...that's power...and what happens is a combination of those two things, and nothing else.

So LJWB gets to shoot as many people has he has power to shoot. And really, nobody has any warrant to say anything about that. The universe belched, and the victims came into existence: it convulsed, and they were taken out of it. And that's the end of the story.

[Harbal]

lil Jimmy Weepy-Bottom

Okay...now...I'm dying...

...might does not make right.

Darn straight.

But I understand why secularists and Subjectivists have to think it does: what else is there? There's us...here by pure accident, by a convulsion of accidental forces...and now there are physics...that's power...and what happens is a combination of those two things, and nothing else.

So LJWB gets to shoot as many people has he has power to shoot. And really, nobody has any warrant to say anything about that. The universe belched, and the victims came into existence: it convulsed, and they were taken out of it. And that's the end of the story.

I don't see the principle difference between I think X is wrong, they think X is wrong, and God thinks X is wrong.

[Immanuel Can]

lil Jimmy Weepy-Bottom

Okay...now...I'm dying...

...might does not make right.

Darn straight.

But I understand why secularists and Subjectivists have to think it does: what else is there? There's us...here by pure accident, by a convulsion of accidental forces...and now there are physics...that's power...and what happens is a combination of those two things, and nothing else.

So LJWB gets to shoot as many people has he has power to shoot. And really, nobody has any warrant to say anything about that. The universe belched, and the victims came into existence: it convulsed, and they were taken out of it. And that's the end of the story.

I don't see the principle difference between I think X is wrong, they think X is wrong, and God thinks X is wrong.

God's always right.

[Harbal]

Okay...now...I'm dying...

Darn straight.

But I understand why secularists and Subjectivists have to think it does: what else is there? There's us...here by pure accident, by a convulsion of accidental forces...and now there are physics...that's power...and what happens is a combination of those two things, and nothing else.

So LJWB gets to shoot as many people has he has power to shoot. And really, nobody has any warrant to say anything about that. The universe belched, and the victims came into existence: it convulsed, and they were taken out of it. And that's the end of the story.

I don't see the principle difference between I think X is wrong, they think X is wrong, and God thinks X is wrong.

God's always right.

So you say, but that doesn't mean a thing.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't see the principle difference between I think X is wrong, they think X is wrong, and God thinks X is wrong.

God's always right.

So you say, but that doesn't mean a thing.

It will mean a great deal to you one day. In fact, it will mean everything.