WOKE and proud of it....

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Consul
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm Lindsay coined the term "Race Marxism" (for Critical Race Theory), and in the latest book we find "Queer Marxism" (for Queer Theory). The entire contemporary "Woke Left" (post-70s Academic Cultural Left) with all the various cultural/critical studies/theories it spawned is demagogically denounced as part of the World Marxist Conspiracy—the conservatives' & fascists' favourite bogeyman.

But how genuinely Marxist are (e.g.) critical race theory and queer theory really?…
"People who observe that Marxism is somehow tied into all of this Woke stuff, then, are certainly not wrong, but it just as certainly isn’t Marxism. Marxists, like the real thing, might be behind this whole “Social Justice” phenomenon, or ready to come in after it tears society apart, as it does, but the Woke themselves are not Marxists, proper, and neither are the Marxists Woke."

James Lindsay: The Complex Relationship between Marxism and Wokeness
If "the Woke themselves are not Marxists", why is he speaking of "Woke Marxism", "Race Marxism", and "Queer Marxism"?!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:45 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:30 pm

If you say so.
I do.
Is it your opinion, or is it a fact?

You decide.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:44 am
Gary Childress wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:45 pm
I do.
Is it your opinion, or is it a fact?

You decide.
Nah. Let's just burn all the heathens and sinners. Me included. Clearly God wants us to.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:56 am Nah. Let's just burn all the heathens and sinners. Me included. Clearly God wants us to.
You don't know God, Gary. That much is very clear. That's a pity, too...given what you say you're dealing with, it would probably take a force no less than Him to make your life what it could and should be. Not many things in this world can heal a mind, or really straighten out a life that's gone wrong, sometimes...but God can. There are no hopeless cases with Him.

If burning people were in God's plan, He'd never have sent His Son. He wouldn't have had to. There'd be nothing to save.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:10 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:56 am Nah. Let's just burn all the heathens and sinners. Me included. Clearly God wants us to.
You don't know God, Gary. That much is very clear. That's a pity, too...given what you say you're dealing with, it would probably take a force no less than Him to make your life what it could and should be. Not many things in this world can heal a mind, or really straighten out a life that's gone wrong, sometimes...but God can. There are no hopeless cases with Him.

If burning people were in God's plan, He'd never have sent His Son. He wouldn't have had to. There'd be nothing to save.
When God removes some of the overall stitholeness of the world, I'll convert. Until then, all I see are insoluble problems and a world headed toward disaster.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Consul wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:29 am
Consul wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pm Lindsay coined the term "Race Marxism" (for Critical Race Theory), and in the latest book we find "Queer Marxism" (for Queer Theory). The entire contemporary "Woke Left" (post-70s Academic Cultural Left) with all the various cultural/critical studies/theories it spawned is demagogically denounced as part of the World Marxist Conspiracy—the conservatives' & fascists' favourite bogeyman.

But how genuinely Marxist are (e.g.) critical race theory and queer theory really?…
"People who observe that Marxism is somehow tied into all of this Woke stuff, then, are certainly not wrong, but it just as certainly isn’t Marxism. Marxists, like the real thing, might be behind this whole “Social Justice” phenomenon, or ready to come in after it tears society apart, as it does, but the Woke themselves are not Marxists, proper, and neither are the Marxists Woke."

James Lindsay: The Complex Relationship between Marxism and Wokeness
If "the Woke themselves are not Marxists", why is he speaking of "Woke Marxism", "Race Marxism", and "Queer Marxism"?!
They are Marxists, in the sense that they are serving a Marxist master. But most of them don't even really know they are. They're following the "illuminati" of their "religion," rather than really understanding what it's about. They think it's about things like "justice" or "equality" or "police brutality" or "being awake" or "anti-racism," but really, it's just about revolution-by-any-and-all means. Race, justice, sex, sexuality, fatness, culture, disability, aboriginality, queerness, transism -- these are all but variable routes, used by the organizers and ginners-up, to the same goal: Marxist overthrow of the status quo. But most Wokies, I would say, are pretty clueless about all that. They aren't the leaders. They're the patsies.

Take BLM, for example. It's originators, like Patrice Cullors, were "trained Marxists," by their own frank admission. They are proud of it. But the average stone-throwing and store-burning vandal on the streets probably has little idea about that. For him, it's just an opportunity to express anger and practice thuggery, or to steal a free Gucci bag for his girl. He knows the slogans, but he has no idea about the ideology. He's a follower, a lemming, a dupe, one of Lenin's "useful idiots," or just a common street-criminal. But Marxism's driving the show. That's the game that will be kept going until one of these cultural flashpoints pays off in revolution. It's the reason why the riot was organized, and it's the reason the skid of bricks showed up on just the right corner to be thrown at the police, and it's the reason the locations and targets of the night's street theatre were picked. There were manipulators behind those "mostly peaceful" rioters.

And here's the deep level: behind the Marxists are also guys like Soros and the WEF, along with certain business interests that collude with them, and the major mass media, all of whom see in revolution an opportunity to increase their own power and extend their own reach. They aren't really Marxists either; but they know what a useful tool in their hands the street-resentment can become. And they're playing the ideologues, too. Marxism's still the script, but the outcome is something Marx never imagined...not the triumph of the proles, but their further enslavement and dependency, wrought by the upheaval occasioned by the unrest. Each incident gives the authoritarians and exploiters just a little more of what they want, and weakens the solidity of the public unity and common life that would resist them. Like Stalin used Marxism, these are going to exploit the fruits of Marxist enthusiasms, and use them to dismantle the structures of resistance to their control.

Ask yourself this: since all the unrest, rioting and polarization began, are ordinary people in a better or worse state than before it began? And if we're continually losing, why are we playing this Marxist game? It's because there are powerful people behind it, driving it forward and using it to enable the exploitation we fear and to undermine our independence so that their control increases. And we feel it, but we don't know how it's happening...so we protest harder, create more chaos, become more hateful, envious and polarized, and also increasingly fearful, dependent and poor, while they rub their grubby little hands together and rake in the rewards of our lack of awareness.
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Systematic
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:05 am
Systematic wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:01 am

Please list all the things of and how being "WOKE" makes the world a better place - than NOT being WOKE.

I'll add to this:

- am I WOKE because I have LGB friends - no issue with their sexual preferences?
- am I WOKE because I have friends of pretty much all ethnicities?
- am I WOKE because I believe in a multicultural society that does NOT overrun my own culture?
- am I WOKE because I believe in LEGAL immigration at levels that is not going to destroy my own culture of my own native people?
- am I WOKE because I believe that ISALMIC ideology is a very very EXTREME ideology that should be avoided as part of immigration to my nation?
I'm sorry your king is punishing you with woke-ness.
That's the type of response I'd expect from a WOKE. Not up for criticism\debate - just silly remarks like a little child.

My actual question is, based on my little list - can I be considered "WOKE"?
The Islamic people are protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.
And your king is definitely a WOKE. I disagree with his execution, but that is easy for me to do, from across the Atlantic.
As a British citizen, I would get arrested.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:24 am To be honest, I just want out of this world. Other than that, I have no better solution to the world's problems.
Gary, please, since you won’t sign up for The 11-Week Email Course, where all questions are answered, where all wrinkles are smoothed, where the psychological sun slways blazes — OK! OK!

But will you at least consider the illuminating message in The Goy’s Teeth?!
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:07 am
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:24 am To be honest, I just want out of this world. Other than that, I have no better solution to the world's problems.
Gary, please, since you won’t sign up for The 11-Week Email Course, where all questions are answered, where all wrinkles are smoothed, where the psychological sun slways blazes — OK! OK!

But will you at least consider the illuminating message in The Goy’s Teeth?!
:?:
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by attofishpi »

Systematic wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:42 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:05 am
Systematic wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:46 pm

I'm sorry your king is punishing you with woke-ness.
That's the type of response I'd expect from a WOKE. Not up for criticism\debate - just silly remarks like a little child.

My actual question is, based on my little list - can I be considered "WOKE"?
The Islamic people are protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.
And your king is definitely a WOKE. I disagree with his execution, but that is easy for me to do, from across the Atlantic.
As a British citizen, I would get arrested.
Y didn't you answer my question? Can I not be considered a "WOKE" based on my little list, can't I join your club?

The Islamic people are protesting incursions within the Gaza strip (not genocide - if Isreal wanted to kill all the Gazan people they could very easily do that) - the incursions are to kill off all the Hamas scum. The scum that Palestinians support thoroughly - they that went into Israel specifically to target civilians, butchering parents in front of their children, butchering children in front of their parents - raping women etc...THEN took hostages.

Strange how Hamas are SOOoooo concerned about the civilian Gazan casualties that they REFUSE to release the hostages.

RE: King being woke? Relevance?
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Gary Childress »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:41 am
Systematic wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:42 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 2:05 am

That's the type of response I'd expect from a WOKE. Not up for criticism\debate - just silly remarks like a little child.

My actual question is, based on my little list - can I be considered "WOKE"?
The Islamic people are protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.
And your king is definitely a WOKE. I disagree with his execution, but that is easy for me to do, from across the Atlantic.
As a British citizen, I would get arrested.
Y didn't you answer my question? Can I not be considered a "WOKE" based on my little list, can't I join your club?

The Islamic people are protesting incursions within the Gaza strip (not genocide - if Isreal wanted to kill all the Gazan people they could very easily do that) - the incursions are to kill off all the Hamas scum. The scum that Palestinians support thoroughly - they that went into Israel specifically to target civilians, butchering parents in front of their children, butchering children in front of their parents - raping women etc...THEN took hostages.

Strange how Hamas are SOOoooo concerned about the civilian Gazan casualties that they REFUSE to release the hostages.

RE: King being woke? Relevance?
You make a fair point, Atto. If Hamas went in and ruthlessly killed helpless civilians (as I have heard they indeed did), then they are guilty of that. The only trouble is that Gazans were in dire straights before all that happened.

However, Hamas was apparently receiving considerable funding from many sources, apparently spending it all on weapons instead of anything for the people. I don't know who is responsible for diverting all that money into weaponry at the expense of civilians but it seems utterly criminal on the part of whoever did.

In any case, it's a complicated situation and none of us want to see Gazan civilians killed. And we want to see a better future for Gazans. If Israel will restore peace and allow Gazans a better future, the sooner the better.
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attofishpi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by attofishpi »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:05 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:41 am
Systematic wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:42 am

The Islamic people are protesting against the genocide of Palestinians.
And your king is definitely a WOKE. I disagree with his execution, but that is easy for me to do, from across the Atlantic.
As a British citizen, I would get arrested.
Y didn't you answer my question? Can I not be considered a "WOKE" based on my little list, can't I join your club?

The Islamic people are protesting incursions within the Gaza strip (not genocide - if Isreal wanted to kill all the Gazan people they could very easily do that) - the incursions are to kill off all the Hamas scum. The scum that Palestinians support thoroughly - they that went into Israel specifically to target civilians, butchering parents in front of their children, butchering children in front of their parents - raping women etc...THEN took hostages.

Strange how Hamas are SOOoooo concerned about the civilian Gazan casualties that they REFUSE to release the hostages.

RE: King being woke? Relevance?
You make a fair point, Atto. If Hamas went in and ruthlessly killed helpless civilians (as I have heard they indeed did), then they are guilty of that. The only trouble is that Gazans were in dire straights before all that happened.

However, Hamas was apparently receiving considerable funding from many sources, apparently spending it all on weapons instead of anything for the people. I don't know who is responsible for diverting all that money into weaponry at the expense of civilians but it seems utterly criminal on the part of whoever did.

In any case, it's a complicated situation and none of us want to see Gazan civilians killed. And we want to see a better future for Gazans. If Israel will restore peace and allow Gazans a better future, the sooner the better.
Absolutely. I was horrified when I saw the first civilian builing collapse because of Israeli air-strike.

The problem for the Palestinian people is that Hamas has continued to state that it will repeat what it did last Oct. In fact, re civilian Palestinians even PRIOR to last OCT...none of them believe in a two state solution. Every Muslim in fact I have seen questioned re such a concept believes NO - Israel must be destroyed. Muslim children are taught HATE from a very young age. Whereas we as children in the West are taught nice things - and the world is painted nice and rosey - as it should for these little ones. NOPE - Muslim children from the outset are taught to HATE - Jews primarily and basically everyone that doesn't bow down to their "Allah".

Believe it or not.

Spare an hr to watch this, you will get a TRUE picture of what life in Palestine is for a child - Mosab is a son of a Hamas leader - very intelligent, always questioned his surroundings and being taught HATE inside "religious" mosques etc..eventually he got caught by the Isreali Defence and he awoke!!

The Brutal Reality of the Middle East | Mosab Hassan Yousef
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5VPFw0vI6U

EDIT: I've just clicked on the link - it's 2hrs! ..but worth every minute if you want to understand THE ACTUAL situation (WOKE - you people owe it to yourselves to watch this also right through)
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Consul wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:29 pmLindsay’s books do contain good stuff (that survives fact-checking); but what I don't like about Race Marxism, The Marxification of Education, and The Queering of the American Child (whose main author isn't Lindsay but Logan Lancing) is that the justified criticism therein is overshadowed by a wild rhetoric of demonization, distortion, and exaggeration.
I have had similar thoughts. And as a result have tried to make some sense of it. First, it is crucial to always maintain some distance from the intensity of The Culture Wars since, in war, pure truth does not function well enough as a devastating weapon and propagandistic truth-statements are in that sense concoctions, pointed reductions, weaponized talking-points whose function, as in advertising and polemics, is to channel opposition into a fighting mass that can win.

Another necessary fact to remain conscious of is that when one examines the stars and celebrities of the social media Right one must remember that many of them -- the entire team of The Daily Wire for example -- have come into many millions of dollars as a result of their activist-performances.

I am not trying to set up a condemnation of James Lindsay on this basis however his discourse *went viral* and his idea-armaments were needed and welcome among those who struggle against a rather vast machine of Left- and Progressive-oriented activism summed up in Gramscian terms as "the long march through the institutions" (in fact attributed to Rudi Dutschke but the point still stands). It is generally understood, I think it is verifiable, that *the institutions* in question are dominated by people with a Left-Progressive orientation. To illustrate this point see this interview with Michael Millerman which I have posted a few times). Simply put, in present-day academia, Left theorists are studied extensively, Right theorists less so (according to Millerman and his interviewer). So there is a whole range of ideas that are excluded from consideration and a bias toward a *politically-correct* set.

My sense is and has been that the issue revolves ultimately around *interpretation*. We must interpret our world. Every person who examines the present, their present, must interpret it, and to do so one needs conceptual tools to organize one's view. In a world that is steeped in principles of advertising and sound-byte politics, a popular figure with intellectual pretensions must formulate idea-weapons in the form of bullet-points and talking-points in order to communicate with an audience -- and an audience likely incapable of and not interested in depth-analysis.

Once that person has concretized a position, the position is transformed into a sort of intellectual rehearsal. It is a marketable product that is sold. And it is bought because the purchaser agrees with the core message and wishes to see it distributed.

So in a sense, and in the midst of The Culture Wars, we receive simulacra in greater or lesser degrees.
1. any image or representation of something
2. a slight, unreal, or vague semblance of something; superficial likeness
You mentioned the work of Douglas Kellner, right? I think his view of The Persian Gulf TV War could well illustrate some part of what I am alluding to. And if this is so then we must remain aware that we are receiving images and concepts -- reductions, condensations -- wherever we turn these days.
What he doesn't mention is that brute violence (terror, torture, incarceration, execution) was part and parcel of Mao's "cultural revolution". Do we see queer activists doing the same in American society, at American kindergartens, schools, and universities? This is not to say that purely psychological indoctrination is harmless—it isn't!—, but the comparison with Maoism is nonetheless very flawed.
If one employs that Maoist model of 'cultural revolution' as a top-down enterprise in the Gramscian sense, I do not think it necessarily has to include "terror, torture, incarceration, execution" to be considered as real. If you insist on such a correspondence you will, naturally, strip the notion of validity.

But I would certainly agree with you (and I think Gary makes a good point) that American Progressivism is not rooted, necessarily or thoroughly, in Marxist theory. Some have proposed that the real engine of American Sixties activism was in Personalism, and Personalism of this sort has roots in Catholicism and Catholic social doctrine. (See: The Spirit of the Sixties: The Making of Postwar Radicalism by James J. Farrell).

However, it is also generally understood that more radical, and certainly Marxian-derived activism, was brought into the political sphere as the battle-lines took shape.

It does not seem to me possible to deny the Marxian influence even if the theorists of it (as facsimile) may not have been *true Marxists*.
the comparison with Maoism is nonetheless very flawed
I understand why you say this, but I do not think I would discount the American-adaption of Maoist technique, though in our culture it is always a hodge-podge and pastiche.
Lindsay coined the term "Race Marxism" (for Critical Race Theory), and in the latest book we find "Queer Marxism" (for Queer Theory). The entire contemporary "Woke Left" (post-70s Academic Cultural Left) with all the various cultural/critical studies/theories it spawned is demagogically denounced as part of the World Marxist Conspiracy—the conservatives' & fascists' favourite bogeyman.
We live in a world that is demagogic. I think that what I mean is that good, fair and sensible ideas, when they are brought into this *world* will always become distorted -- bent, twisted even -- to serve some faction or interest-set.
What matters most to them for propagandistic purposes is that their conservative audience reads the term "Race/Queer Marxism" as a name of Pure Evil: "Wokeism" = "Woke Marxism/Maoism/Stalinism"!
The entire Woke Left is portrayed as a satanic brood of "abnormals" with evil intentions—Lindsay's & Lancing's political message being: Let's make America great again by making it normal again!
The way I understand these things is -- I am sure I've made it reasonably clear and I am sure you understand what I mean -- that perspectives become weaponized. They have to be fashined into propaganda tools in order to be useful for those fighting the battles. The Left, for example, utterly vilifies the Right and Conservatism (to speak generally). Any move toward Right-tending ideas is portrayed as the beginnings of a Hitlerian take-over.

What I understand to be happening now is that there is a reaction taking shape where the Right, or Conservatives, or *average people* who are concerned and alarmed by social trends taking shape, seek out conceptual and rhetorical weaponry so that their struggle, their movement, has an articulate-able base.
the conservatives' & fascists' favourite bogeyman.
This is one reason why I suggested to Immanuel Can that the general Marxian Narrative, or the hybrid narrative that is referred to in reductionist terms (Woke Marxism, etc.) is actually extremely powerful and it tends to convince people.

When and if you attempt to articulate an alternative position you must step into the articulation of unpopular ideas. For this reason I have (often) presented a more radical presentation that deals on *what has happened to us* or *what we have allowed to have happen to us*.

It necessarily involves a more militant set of ideas and principles.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 4:33 am :?:
Let’s do away, Gary, with emoticons and circular question marks ❓

They can safely be abandoned at this point. That point has come. It is here.

The Goy’s Teeth was just a foyer.

Let’s move to the center.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2024 5:05 am The only trouble is that Gazans were in dire straights before all that happened.
Only because of HAMAS, which they, themselves, made their rulers. They had 100% control of the Gaza Strip, with all Jewish Gazans having already been forcibly removed by Israel to give them sovereignty. They had billions of dollars in foreign aid flooding in. But it was all taken by corrupt HAMAS leaders, in order to produce rockets and tunnels, as you observe.

For HAMAS, the strategy is simple: massacre as many Jewish civilians as possible, creating a massive, unavoidable provocation to war; put as many Gazans as possible in harm's way, and use the dying women and children as fodder to gin up international hatred against Israel. Israel cannot refuse the offer of war, since if they do, HAMAS will continue to massacre them and shoot rockets; but Israel cannot win in Gaza, because the price of stopping HAMAS is going to be the complete loss of face with the international community. Either way, HAMAS wins. They win because they get to kill Jews, or they get to win because the war kills enough Gazans to cause the international community to abandon Israel. The only price -- and HAMAS is eager to pay that price -- is piles of dead civilian Gazans, along with terrorists who can be framed as civilians.
If Israel will restore peace and allow Gazans a better future, the sooner the better.
HAMAS, in their own charter, and by their current actions, is quite clear: they will not allow this solution. They continue to shoot rockets, they continue to hold hostages, and they continue to promise to wipe Israel off the face of the map if they get the opportunity. They will not stop, and they will not stop precisely so that Israel cannot stop.

Shame on the Woke for having fallen for it. In their zeal to pose as "advocates of the oppressed," they've presented themselves as ready tools of HAMAS, which is the real cause of dying Gazan civilians. And we know this is true, for certain, because the Western protests started far too quickly -- right on the heels of Oct. 7th, on Oct 8th -- before the full measure of the massacres was even known, and before Israel had responded at all. :shock: Clearly, HAMAS had prepared to incite these overseas protests, and the Wokies walked right into their propaganda with their empty heads hanging down, never seeing they were being played. What fools!

That's the danger of virtue signalling: it makes one a predictable, manipulable dupe. Anything that grooms their desire to preen as "sympathetic" and "compassionate" triggers them into irrational alliances against the side of decency and truth. Nothing more clearly illustrates their gullibility and irrationality than "Gays for Gaza." They even end up advocating for those who would gladly murder them. Wokism thus has become support not for Gazans, but for HAMAS. HAMAS is the one pulling the strings here, and the Wokies are dancing furiously to their tune.
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