WOKE and proud of it....

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Consul
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Consul »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:03 am
Consul wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:02 am Cultural Marxism is really a thing; but what it is according to political science is different from what it is according to right-wing conspiracy theorists.
I glanced over your two references. Your position in respect to the question, I gather, is likely skewed to your first reference (Kellner). Your second reference seems skewed by prejudice to a POV that doesn’t accurately represent the sound critical position toward Cultural Marxism I am familiar with.

A sound critical position — and a trenchant one — is offered by James Lindsay who is doing consistently good work in this area.
I have copies of Lindsay's books and even read them. I'll leave it up to political scientists specializing in (the history of) Marxism to decide whether his work is "consistently good". Note that, being a mathematician, Lindsay isn't one of them!

Anyway, I am by no means saying that any right-wing criticism or critique of the actual, real (Cultural) Marxism (including Neo- & Post-Marxism) is unfounded and unwarranted.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:24 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:21 am K: have you actually watch the video in question?
I did. Did you?
K: I did which is why I asked that question... but, don't worry
phyllo answered my question.... there is no specific study mentioned
in your video..... hence my inability for me to find it and, AND
you're basing a post on a study that can't be found.....thus tainting
your post......but don't worry about it.... you can still keep making shit
up.....

Kropotkin...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:24 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:21 am K: have you actually watch the video in question?
I did. Did you?
...you can still keep making shit
up.....
I didn't. You found it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson attests to the findings of the study. Your argument is with him, not me.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Consul wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:33 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:03 am
Consul wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:02 am Cultural Marxism is really a thing; but what it is according to political science is different from what it is according to right-wing conspiracy theorists.
I glanced over your two references. Your position in respect to the question, I gather, is likely skewed to your first reference (Kellner). Your second reference seems skewed by prejudice to a POV that doesn’t accurately represent the sound critical position toward Cultural Marxism I am familiar with.

A sound critical position — and a trenchant one — is offered by James Lindsay who is doing consistently good work in this area.
I have copies of Lindsay's books and even read them. I'll leave it up to political scientists specializing in (the history of) Marxism to decide whether his work is "consistently good". Note that, being a mathematician, Lindsay isn't one of them!
Are you supposing that "political scientists" are more adept at handling things like statistics and logic than a mathematician is? Or are you just unaware that "poli-sci" is a long way downstream from hard science, and mathematics is at its top -- "pure mathematics" being at the root of both applied and theoretical physics, for example? :shock:

Maybe what you should do is what you are so commendably promising to do, which is to read the book and check the evidence and data for yourself. You'll find he cites frequently and directly from the very theoreticians the Critical Theory ideologues quote and revere themselves. So you won't find you have to take a lot of what he says on faith, or on your assessment of his character, whatever that might be.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:37 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:24 pm
I did. Did you?
...you can still keep making shit
up.....
I didn't. You found it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson attests to the findings of the study. Your argument is with him, not me.
K: a study that can't be found..... and secondly, you are basing your posts
on the word of another.... that is not really sound philosophy.... you should,
if you were honest, investigate that ''word'' to see to the validity of it....

You just accepted the word of Peterson.... that is bad philosophy....
one of the points of philosophy is not to take the word of another
at face value..... what if Socrates had just taken the word of another...
we would never have heard of Socrates... no, he explored the values/
beliefs of another by examining the word of another....for example,
someone said, ''I believe in justice" do you take their word or, or
do you do as Socrates did which is explore that word, ''Justice?''

Patterson said, "there is a study'' and you left it at that.....
do you feel good about that choice? if you do, perhaps
philosophy isn't really something for you....

Kropotkin
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Consul wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:33 pm I have copies of Lindsay's books and even read them. I'll leave it up to political scientists specializing in (the history of) Marxism to decide whether his work is "consistently good". Note that, being a mathematician, Lindsay isn't one of them!

Anyway, I am by no means saying that any right-wing criticism or critique of the actual, real (Cultural) Marxism (including Neo- & Post-Marxism) is unfounded and unwarranted.
Let me ask this: If you think Lindsay’s work is incomplete or let’s say inferior, then who would you suggest is doing better critical work?

What are your thoughts on Lindsay’s view of queering?

You seem here to soften, or to broaden, your first statement of contrast between Kellner’s essay and that of the second reference you submitted.

Where does legitimate criticism begin?

[I did read and do appreciate Kellner’s The Persian Gulf TV War.]
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:37 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:33 pm
...you can still keep making shit
up.....
I didn't. You found it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson attests to the findings of the study. Your argument is with him, not me.
...you are basing your posts
on the word of another....
His credentials are good. He's a a highly-regarded expert in the field. But I take the research to be interesting. I don't assert it's definitive. But I find it experientially true, too: Socialism certainly has an overwhelming appeal to the types of people he lists. Go to any Woke demonstration, and you'll find plenty of the data that confirms the findings of the study.
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:53 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:37 pm
I didn't. You found it.

Dr. Jordan Peterson attests to the findings of the study. Your argument is with him, not me.
...you are basing your posts
on the word of another....
His credentials are good. He's a a highly-regarded expert in the field. But I take the research to be interesting. I don't assert it's definitive. But I find it experientially true, too: Socialism certainly has an overwhelming appeal to the types of people he lists. Go to any Woke demonstration, and you'll find plenty of the data that confirms the findings of the study.
K: Once again, what study? there is no study outside of the word of Patterson.....
and Patterson is not that highly regarded.... he has some real issues.....
and had you been honest, you would have examined those issues and
decide if listening to Patterson is really the best idea?

try to examine someone before you jump to their defense.....

what values and beliefs do Patterson actually hold to?
what is the basis for his thoughts? I would examine Patterson long
before I would have examined his ideas of ''WOKE''...
Is he really the rock on which you want to base your theories on?

Kropotkin
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 5:13 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:53 pm
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:44 pm
...you are basing your posts
on the word of another....
His credentials are good. He's a a highly-regarded expert in the field. But I take the research to be interesting. I don't assert it's definitive. But I find it experientially true, too: Socialism certainly has an overwhelming appeal to the types of people he lists. Go to any Woke demonstration, and you'll find plenty of the data that confirms the findings of the study.
...there is no study outside of the word of Patterson.....
Dr. Jordan Peterson. You clearly don't even know who one of the most influential psychologists, authors and public philosophers of the 21st Century is.
Is he really the rock on which you want to base your theories on?
He's an excellent starting point. But all we have to do is check the Wokies themselves, and we'll find that research confirmed, even by casual observation. But perhaps sight helps with that, and I understand that visual confirmation is not an option for you. So perhaps you'll have to ask others what they see, and then take their word for it.
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phyllo
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by phyllo »

He's an excellent starting point. But all we have to do is check the Wokies themselves, and we'll find that research confirmed, even by casual observation.
Or you might find confirmation bias. :lol:
Gary Childress
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Gary Childress »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:47 am Some interesting thoughts by Michael Millerman on Rightwing anti-Liberalism.
My opinion of Heidegger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9js6LdkRE6Y
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:07 pm
He's an excellent starting point. But all we have to do is check the Wokies themselves, and we'll find that research confirmed, even by casual observation.
Or you might find confirmation bias. :lol:
Or not. It's pretty obvious. The screamy, blue-haired, intellectually-limited vandals that populate the average Wokie demonstration give ample evidence that JP may have understated the case. These are not geniuses, not rocket-scientists: and their love of the "oppressed classes" they claim to champion ends the moment any real opposition appears -- for example, in the case of race, it ends when the burning and looting are over, and leaves devastated minority neighbourhoods; or, in the case of women's and gay rights, it ends at the front door of any Muslim country. These are pretenders to understanding, not havers of any understanding, and virtue-signalers, not virtuous people. And one really doesn't have to be any kind of genius to see it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:51 pm My opinion of Heidegger.
My supposition -- I believe it is true in my case -- is that many people, in different ways and degrees, have taken the challenge, if I can call it that, to confront and to expose themselves to that entirely personal issue of Being: that I exist, that things exist, that I am here in this, among all this, and sharing this existence with yous.

I will assume that many people -- most people -- plunged into this question without necessarily understanding why and what brought them to it. What I mean is *a whole generation*. Certain people who have confronted Heidegger or any other philosopher, will inevitably present *what was meant* in ways that their hearers listen to, hear, and act on.

It should be obvious, though perhaps it is not to many who write here, that the confrontation with the question of Being (taken as I understand Heidegger to have meant) is much more than merely an intellectual exercise. I also assume, but even this is not certain, that most do recognize that the confrontation with one's self, and with Being, cannot be reduced to anything such as *an intellectual awakening* or something like an accumulation of new facts.

I do not think, for this reason, that one's confrontation with Being, or my confrontation with Being, is experience amenable to chitter-chatter on a forum like this. Though I do think that allusions (to what is realized) are possible. I also wonder at times if, here among supposed philosophers, that anything at all of this nature had actually ever taken place! And could be taken seriously. By seriously I might mean *authentically*. So, with that said, it is quite possible that many here (?) have never really confronted themselves through a headlong clash with that non-rationalizable issue of Being. In my own case I do not think that Being can be presented as a forum-topic.

The issue that I am examining, that is being examined in this thread, will not suffer from being more precisely and more clearly defined. Is Heiddeger in a specific sense so very much related to it? Will something Heidegger did or said illuminate any part of what we are dealing with here? I do not think so.

It is possible however to make some cultural and social references to the *problems* of Nietzsche and Heidegger especially among those who shit bricks these days that there is a movement that is gaining adherents and influence who are (like myself) moving toward an *anti-liberal* posture and who articulate their ideas in clear and coherent terms.

So, and for example, we have right in front of us a fine example: the manipulation of our children by state entities where what is loosely referred to as *wokensess* but which is actually a derivative from and an activist's branch of Marxian activism, has gained an extraordinary ground within pedagogy. When one reads and understands what is going on there, and when it is laid out in clear terms, it is highly alarming. Except that people (I will use Kropotkin as an example) cannot clearly see the *problem*.

The radicals that operate in our present, and who have significantly fucked things up, must be stopped. But we live in a liberal society! I have to tolerate people who, in my view and one I can rationally defend, are destroying the very foundations on which it is built. What do we do *in a liberal political system* when things come to this pass? Is this an issue to be decided *by democracy*?

Can Heidegger help here? Can Nietzsche? Or is there any Postmodernist that can bring light to this problem?
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Childress
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Gary Childress »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 2:52 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 12:51 pm My opinion of Heidegger.
My supposition -- I believe it is true in my case -- is that many people, in different ways and degrees, have taken the challenge, if I can call it that, to confront and to expose themselves to that entirely personal issue of Being: that I exist, that things exist, that I am here in this, among all this, and sharing this existence with yous.

I will assume that many people -- most people -- plunged into this question without necessarily understanding why and what brought them to it. What I mean is *a whole generation*. Certain people who have confronted Heidegger or any other philosopher, will inevitably present *what was meant* in ways that their hearers listen to, hear, and act on.

It should be obvious, though perhaps it is not to many who write here, that the confrontation with the question of Being (taken as I understand Heidegger to have meant) is much more than merely an intellectual exercise. I also assume, but even this is not certain, that most do recognize that the confrontation with one's self, and with Being, cannot be reduced to anything such as *an intellectual awakening* or something like an accumulation of new facts.

I do not think, for this reason, that one's confrontation with Being, or my confrontation with Being, is experience amenable to chitter-chatter on a forum like this. Though I do think that allusions (to what is realized) are possible. I also wonder at times if, here among supposed philosophers, that anything at all of this nature had actually ever taken place! And could be taken seriously. By seriously I might mean *authentically*. So, with that said, it is quite possible that many here (?) have never really confronted themselves through a headlong clash with that non-rationalizable issue of Being. In my own case I do not think that Being can be presented as a forum-topic.

The issue that I am examining, that is being examined in this thread, will not suffer from being more precisely and more clearly defined. Is Heiddeger in a specific sense so very much related to it? Will something Heidegger did or said illuminate any part of what we are dealing with here? I do not think so.

It is possible however to make some cultural and social references to the *problems* of Nietzsche and Heidegger especially among those who shit bricks these days that there is a movement that is gaining adherents and influence who are (like myself) moving toward an *anti-liberal* posture and who articulate their ideas in clear and coherent terms.

So, and for example, we have right in front of us a fine example: the manipulation of our children by state entities where what is loosely referred to as *wokensess* but which is actually a derivative from and an activist's branch of Marxian activism, has gained an extraordinary ground within pedagogy. When one reads and understands what is going on there, and when it is laid out in clear terms, it is highly alarming. Except that people (I will use Kropotkin as an example) cannot clearly see the *problem*.

Can Heidegger help here? Can Nietzsche? Or is there any Postmodernist that can bring light to this problem?
I mean, liberalism is fundamentally about personal liberty. If you don't like the idea of personal liberty, then you are free to go to the nearest asylum and commit yourself. They'll restrain you if you would like them to do so.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 3:00 pmI mean, liberalism is fundamentally about personal liberty.
I am certain that if you were to define *liberty* and I were to define it, our definitions would not be commensurate.
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