Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Skepdick
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm I'm looking at it from the practical point of view.
Are you sure about that? Because I am looking at it from the practical PoV and I don't see anything practical about your PoV.
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm Let's say you do some sort of experiment to show infinite regress or the impossibility of infinite regress.
OK. Lets set out to perform such an experiment. What do you expect to happen if the experiment were to be a failure.
e.g you set out to prove the impossibility of infinite regress, yet you fail to do so. Haven't you thus proven the possibility of infinite regress?
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm If the process in the experiment ends, then all you have shown is that specific process ends.
Precisely. So that specific thing isn't infinitely regressive.
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm It doesn't show anything about the general case or the specific case of the origins of the universe.
Wait... how did you go from the abstract concept of infinite regress to the concrete universe?
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm If the process in the experiment doesn't end, then you don't know if you have gone through a sufficient number of cycles to reach the end (if it exists). Maybe you are terminating the experiment too soon.
Precisely! For as long as the experiment continues. For as long as the experiment has NOT terminated you are busy demonstrating the possibility of infinite regress.
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:55 pm I don't see any way of getting around this.
Around what? WHILE the process is NOT terminating you are demonstrating a direct example of infinite regress.

Can you prove that the process WILL terminate after N cycles? No - you can't.

Q.E.D there's your proof of infinite regress.
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phyllo
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by phyllo »

OK. Lets set out to perform such an experiment. What do you expect to happen if the experiment were to be a failure.
e.g you set out to prove the impossibility of infinite regress, yet you fail to do so. Haven't you thus proven the possibility of infinite regress?
That depends on your hypothesis and the structure of the experiment.

No. Failing to prove the impossibility of infinite regress is not proof of the possibility of infinite regress.
Wait... how did you go from the abstract concept of infinite regress to the concrete universe?
That's what an experiment is ... concrete.
Precisely! For as long as the experiment continues. For as long as the experiment has NOT terminated you are busy demonstrating the possibility of infinite regress.
You're demonstrating regress.
Around what? WHILE the process is NOT terminating you are demonstrating a direct example of infinite regress.
Correction, you're demonstrating finite regress. You can't say that it's infinite.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:40 am Your question is tantamount to asking "When's God's first birthday?"
Logic, my friend. Use logic. If I'm wrong, you need a first number in the infinite-regress sequence.

What is that number?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:02 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 4:34 pm You're also not showing the experiment that proves your point.

Reminder:
Easy.

Let's call the BB, or Creation -- whatever you wish to designate it, the "0", the zero-point of the universe's origin.

From the 0 point to the first subsequent event (like the banging of the first two molecules together, or whatever you wish) is +1. The second event after the 0 point is +2, and so on. So we can put the cause-and-effect story together this way: the 0 event caused the +1 event; the +1 event was the immediate cause of the +2 event, the +2 event was the immediate cause of the +3 event...and so on, to the present moment.

But wait: if there is no such thing as an "uncaused cause," then the 0 event was itself caused. We don't even have to know what it was that caused the BB or Creation, or whatever. Whatever it was, we simply mark as the "-1" event. Whatever caused the -1 event, we now call the "-2" event...and so on.

But what does "cause" mean? It means that an event cannot happen without its cause having existed first. It would be, for example, utter nonsense to say, "I am the child of my great grandson." That's utterly impossible: if you are the grandfather, you can't possibly be the progeny of your own grandson. Likewise, if we say "the gasoline caused a fire," we must mean that before there was any fire, there was gasoline. This is surely frightfully obvious, but we need to make it plain here: a thing can't "cause" another thing, unless it came before that thing: never at the same time, and never afterward. If it came at the same time or afterward, then it was certainly NOT the cause of the event. Clear enough?

So something caused the BB or the Creation, the "0 point" event, whatever we consider it to be. And that something was the "-1" event. It was caused by the "-2" event...and so on.

So we've got a string of causes that looks like this: -3, -2, -1,0, 1, 2,3,...potentially to infinity, perhaps.

But notice this: that's only possible at the right-hand end of the string. We cannot have an infinite string of digits to the left of the sequence. And why? Because -3 had to come before -2, and -1 had to come before 0, and so on.

Here's the clincher: if the sequence was infinite to the left, that is, "infinitely regressive," then IT WOULD STILL BE WAITING TO BEGIN. When could it begin? Never. Because an infinite chain of prerequisites is required in order to arrive at the 0 event: and infinity, running backward, never begins.

Thus, if our universe were dependent on a regressing chain of causes, and that chain were infinite, THE UNIVERSE WOULD NOT EXIST. It couldn't ever get started. Its prerequisite conditions would recede infinitely, never finding a starting point.

And you can test it by using the chain we constructed to model the situation. Ask yourself this: if I stipulated to you that you could not write down "0" until you had written "-1" already, and couldn't write "-2" until you'd already written "-3", and so on infinitely, at what point would you get to put pen to paper? :shock:

The answer, of course, is "never." Just so, there would never be a universe if the causal sequence that produced it had to be infinitely regressive.

But there IS a universe, of course. So that tells you something beyond any reasonable doubt: that the universe is not the product of an infinite regressive chain of cause-and-effect. It had some uncaused causal point. We cannot, at this moment, and without more data, say more than that: but we can say it with absolute certainty.

But can we say more? I think we can. We can start to talk about what kind of an "uncaused cause" is the most plausible candidate for initiating a causal chain that results in the kind of universe we have...and we can move on from there, as well. But this is already a long reply, and it's said enough to establish the certainty of an uncaused cause at the root of the universe. And that's all that was so far asked, so I'll pause here.
That's not an experiment.
it is, if you try to perform it. So do the experiment: just locate the initial integer that can commence the sequence of cause-effect, given an infinite chain of regress. If you can do it, you've disproved the point experimentally as well as mathematically. If you cannot...
You're arbitrarily saying that "We cannot have an infinite string of digits to the left of the sequence."
It's not at all arbitrary: it's stipulated by the fact of "before." Pay additional attention to that part of the thought-experiment, and you'll get the point.

If X causes Y, then cause means "before Y, X." If X did not happen, then Y does not happen. If it does, then X was absolutely certain not to have been the cause of Y. X happens first, always, in a causal chain.
Sure, an infinite regress universe seems impossible.
It doesn't just "seem." It IS. That mathematics proves it beyond reasonable doubt.
The real explanation, now, is that we don't know why the universe exists or how it came into existence. IOW, we don't have a sensible explanation.
But we do know this: it came into being as a result of something that was NOT caused. If the X that produced the Y (the universe) was caused, then we get the infinite regress problem all over again, and the causal chain can never start.

But the causal chain did start. We can see it. So how did it start, with no inception point? :shock: It's mathematically impossible for that to be the case.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:45 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:28 pm Let me know when you manage it.
Done!
Let's see it, then. What's the first number in an infinite-regress-of-causes sequence.
Why does it have to be a number?

What is the first, in a so-called 'infinite-regress-of-causes sequence', is already known, well to some anyway, and is irrefutable.

And, by the way, it is not some dreamed up and imagined male-gendered creature nor being, like you believe absolutely it is
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:45 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:33 pm
Done!
Let's see it, then. What's the first number in an infinite-regress-of-causes sequence.
Why does it have to be a number?
Because that's maths. And we're doing a mathematical demonstration.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:02 pm

Easy.

Let's call the BB, or Creation -- whatever you wish to designate it, the "0", the zero-point of the universe's origin.

From the 0 point to the first subsequent event (like the banging of the first two molecules together, or whatever you wish) is +1. The second event after the 0 point is +2, and so on. So we can put the cause-and-effect story together this way: the 0 event caused the +1 event; the +1 event was the immediate cause of the +2 event, the +2 event was the immediate cause of the +3 event...and so on, to the present moment.

But wait: if there is no such thing as an "uncaused cause," then the 0 event was itself caused. We don't even have to know what it was that caused the BB or Creation, or whatever. Whatever it was, we simply mark as the "-1" event. Whatever caused the -1 event, we now call the "-2" event...and so on.

But what does "cause" mean? It means that an event cannot happen without its cause having existed first. It would be, for example, utter nonsense to say, "I am the child of my great grandson." That's utterly impossible: if you are the grandfather, you can't possibly be the progeny of your own grandson. Likewise, if we say "the gasoline caused a fire," we must mean that before there was any fire, there was gasoline. This is surely frightfully obvious, but we need to make it plain here: a thing can't "cause" another thing, unless it came before that thing: never at the same time, and never afterward. If it came at the same time or afterward, then it was certainly NOT the cause of the event. Clear enough?

So something caused the BB or the Creation, the "0 point" event, whatever we consider it to be. And that something was the "-1" event. It was caused by the "-2" event...and so on.

So we've got a string of causes that looks like this: -3, -2, -1,0, 1, 2,3,...potentially to infinity, perhaps.

But notice this: that's only possible at the right-hand end of the string. We cannot have an infinite string of digits to the left of the sequence. And why? Because -3 had to come before -2, and -1 had to come before 0, and so on.

Here's the clincher: if the sequence was infinite to the left, that is, "infinitely regressive," then IT WOULD STILL BE WAITING TO BEGIN. When could it begin? Never. Because an infinite chain of prerequisites is required in order to arrive at the 0 event: and infinity, running backward, never begins.

Thus, if our universe were dependent on a regressing chain of causes, and that chain were infinite, THE UNIVERSE WOULD NOT EXIST. It couldn't ever get started. Its prerequisite conditions would recede infinitely, never finding a starting point.

And you can test it by using the chain we constructed to model the situation. Ask yourself this: if I stipulated to you that you could not write down "0" until you had written "-1" already, and couldn't write "-2" until you'd already written "-3", and so on infinitely, at what point would you get to put pen to paper? :shock:

The answer, of course, is "never." Just so, there would never be a universe if the causal sequence that produced it had to be infinitely regressive.

But there IS a universe, of course. So that tells you something beyond any reasonable doubt: that the universe is not the product of an infinite regressive chain of cause-and-effect. It had some uncaused causal point. We cannot, at this moment, and without more data, say more than that: but we can say it with absolute certainty.

But can we say more? I think we can. We can start to talk about what kind of an "uncaused cause" is the most plausible candidate for initiating a causal chain that results in the kind of universe we have...and we can move on from there, as well. But this is already a long reply, and it's said enough to establish the certainty of an uncaused cause at the root of the universe. And that's all that was so far asked, so I'll pause here.
That's not an experiment.
it is, if you try to perform it. So do the experiment: just locate the initial integer that can commence the sequence of cause-effect, given an infinite chain of regress.
What is it with you and 'a number' here?

Looking for something that does not exist is only something an insane one would keep doing.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
If you can do it, you've disproved the point experimentally as well as mathematically. If you cannot...
You're arbitrarily saying that "We cannot have an infinite string of digits to the left of the sequence."
It's not at all arbitrary: it's stipulated by the fact of "before." Pay additional attention to that part of the thought-experiment, and you'll get the point.

If X causes Y, then cause means "before Y, X." If X did not happen, then Y does not happen. If it does, then X was absolutely certain not to have been the cause of Y. X happens first, always, in a causal chain.
Talk about driving "one's" 'self' to insanity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:08 pm Sure, an infinite regress universe seems impossible.
It doesn't just "seem." It IS.
Here is a prime example of how beliefs, themselves, can lead to an absolute False conclusion/'confirmation bias'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:08 pm That mathematics proves it beyond reasonable doubt.
The real explanation, now, is that we don't know why the universe exists or how it came into existence.
But, 'we' do know, and know exactly also.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
IOW, we don't have a sensible explanation.
you, and others, obviously do not. But 'we' do.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
But we do know this: it came into being as a result of something that was NOT caused.
Talk about deluding "one's" 'self' completely.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm If the X that produced the Y (the universe) was caused, then we get the infinite regress problem all over again, and the causal chain can never start.
This one, still, believes, absolutely, that a male-gendered creature caused and created the whole Universe, Itself.

This, really, was how stupid some human beings were, back in the days when this was being written.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:41 pm
But the causal chain did start. We can see it. So how did it start, with no inception point? :shock: It's mathematically impossible for that to be the case.
These people were so blinded, by their own beliefs, that they, literally, could not find and see the so-called conception point', which was and is 'staring them in the face', as it is sometimes called.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:25 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 6:40 am Your question is tantamount to asking "When's God's first birthday?"
Logic, my friend. Use logic.
I am using logic, my friend. A logic you clearly don't understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitary_logic
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:25 pm If I'm wrong, you need a first number in the infinite-regress sequence.
If you were right then indeed you'd be right about being wrong. Given your perpetual demand for me to manufacture a contradiction.

You are just like an atheist asking whether God can create a rock even he can't lift.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:25 pm What is that number?
It's God's birthday.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Age
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:49 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:46 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 2:45 am
Let's see it, then. What's the first number in an infinite-regress-of-causes sequence.
Why does it have to be a number?
Because that's maths. And we're doing a mathematical demonstration.
Lol

How could absolutely anyone do absolutely any demonstration, mathematical or not, which is absolutely impossible?

And, please do not forget that just because one cannot do a mathematical demonstration here, then this proves that the Universe, Itself, aligns with 'that'.

you human beings seem to think that the Universe, Itself, has to align to your own mathematical conclusions. Talk about a species that can be, at times, so self-delusional and so self-deluded.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm That depends on your hypothesis and the structure of the experiment.
OK so tell me about the experiment you have in mind.
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm No. Failing to prove the impossibility of infinite regress is not proof of the possibility of infinite regress.
OK - it's your experiment! What would be a satisfactory proof *to you* about the possibility of infinite regress?
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm That's what an experiment is ... concrete.
OK great! So give me a concrete infinite regress and lets prove if it's possible.
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm You're demonstrating regress.
Correct! You are demonstrating a regress which has not yet ended. Do you have any proof that it will end?
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm Correction, you're demonstrating finite regress.
You are? Has your regress ended? No it hasn't. Therefore it's NOT finite.

Q.E.D
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:19 pm You can't say that it's infinite.
I can! I have prove the regress is NOT finite.

Isn't that what infinite means? Proving that something is NOT finite is a proof that something is infinite.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:25 pm What is that number?
It's God's birthday.
No Theist believes in a god with a birthday. God is definitionally the Supreme Being and First Cause. If you don't know that, then you don't know what Theists mean by "God" at all.

So we don't believe in the "god" you don't believe in, either.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Age wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:49 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:46 pm

Why does it have to be a number?
Because that's maths. And we're doing a mathematical demonstration.
Lol
I'm sorry, Age...you're not possible to talk to about anything with any depth at all. I shouldn't have tried. You came to play hockey without a stick, obviously.
Skepdick
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:16 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 3:25 pm What is that number?
It's God's birthday.
No Theist believes in a god with a birthday. God is definitionally the Supreme Being and First Cause. If you don't know that, then you don't know what Theists mean by "God" at all.

So we don't believe in the "god" you don't believe in, either.
I told you my God's much bigger than your God.

My God is the 1st cause and the 0th cause and the -1st cause and the -2nd cause and the -3rd cause. My God is the infinite eternal God.

My God is the One True God - the God of Orthodox Christianity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:16 pm So we don't believe in the "god" you don't believe in, either.
I know! You are an atheist.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:20 pm I told you my God's much bigger than your God...
Well, I guess we'll see.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 4:16 pm Well, I guess we'll see.
Will we? You can't even tell us which God you are talking about.

That's a sure way to tell you believe in a false God.
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