Moral Realism Without a God

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Moral Realism Without a God

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

How Can Atheists Have Objective Morality Without God?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R2CSQ6XyxQ

The above video is mostly the same with my principles and views on moral objectivity or moral realism.
The exception is I do not include 'virtue ethics' within Morality-proper.

Transcripts: [partial]
Objective morality refers to the moral principles and values that are universally valid and independent of individual's opinions beliefs or cultural norms.
These principles are considered to be true regard regardless of whether or not anyone believes in them much like mathematical or scientific truths.

For a moral principle to be objective it must meet the following criteria.
Universality it applies to all people at all times in all places.
Impartiality it is not influenced by personal feelings interpretations or Prejudice.
Rational justification it can be supported by logical reasoning and empirical evidence.
Consistency it does not lead to contradictions and can be coherently integrated into a broader moral framework.

A naturalistic moral realist framework could be built upon premises about the objective nature of human beings as scientifically understood.

So what are some examples of objective morality without a God.
First there is utilitarianism
Next we encountered Deontological ethics rooted in the principles of Emanuel Kant.
Virtue ethics takes us on a different path focusing not on rules or Consequences but on the character of the individual.
Humanism on the other hand grounds Morality In the intrinsic value and dignity of human beings.
the social contract theory which proposes that morality rises from the implicit agreement among individuals to form a society that benefits everyone.

Feature of Universal Objective Moral Reality
i. The principle of universal human rights

ii. While well-being itself can be subjective the principle that actions promoting well-being are morally good can be considered objective This principle posits that causing unnecessary harm is objectively wrong it is based on the universal experience of pain and suffering which rational beings generally seek to avoid.

iii Notions of Fairness And Justice obtain objectivity when grounded in the fundamental moral ideals of equality impartiality and non-discrimination.

iv While Empathy and Compassion are subjective experiences the basis for rationally promoting empathy and reducing suffering stems from objective moral truths

v Game Theory and Cooperation The principles and strategies illuminated by game theory for achieving mutually beneficial cooperation reflect objective moral truths.

Conclusion
While the nature of morality and ethics has been vigorously debated throughout human history this video has demonstrated that objective moral truth and universal ethical principles can potentially be derived through reason empirical observation and rational analysis without necessarily requiring a belief in a God or adhering to a religious Doctrine.
The various approaches we explored including.
• utilitarianism.
• deontological ethics.
• virtue ethics.
• humanism and.
• social contract theory.
all put forth Frameworks for grounding Morality In impartial rationality consistency with observable facts and principles that are universally applicable to all people.
While they're Maximizing overall utility adhering to.
• categorical moral duties.
• cultivating virtuous character.
• respecting human dignity or.
• upholding the rules enabling social cooperation.
these ethical systems aim to establish objective moral truths that transcend subjective opinion

While subjective perspectives on ethics will always exist the examples of Human Rights promoting well-being minimizing harm ensuring fairness empathizing with suffering and game theoretic cooperation strategies illustrate how objective moral knowledge can potentially be derived from universally recognizable starting points about reality, human nature and rational self-interest.

Ultimately through rigorous philosophical inquiry and Analysis grounded in reason and empirical understanding an objective ethical Foundation does not need to rely on religious premises or divine revelation.
But can be built from the ground up via our rational natural capacity as humans to recognize moral truths.

My Morality
I'll finish up here with this to be clear while the examples discussed so far aimed to ground Morality In fully objective ethical truths.
My personal view is that morality necessarily contains both subjective and objective components.

At the most fundamental level we must make inherently subjective value judgments about what foundational principles or premises to adopt as moral axioms worthy of being ethical starting points.
Whether it is valuing happiness recognizing the intrinsic worth of human life or prioritizing rationality these basic moral commitments are subjective in nature.
However, once we establish those subjective moral premises we can use reason empirical observation and logical consistency to drive objective moral truths that follow from our chosen ethical foundations.
If we subjectively decided that minimizing suffering is a core ethical imperative we can objectively study and determine what actions policies or social Arrangements will most effectively minimize suffering based on that initial subjective value judgment.
The process of deriving specific moral obligations from our subjective premises through rational inquiry is what gives morality its objective Dimension.
So in my view morality is grounded in an irreducible set of subjective value judgments about what moral facts or principles we deem worthy of being foundational commitments.
But it also contains objective moral knowledge and duties that logically follow from those subjective starting points through reasoned analysis.

Morality is therefore an interplay of subjective axioms entailing objective ethical truths within a given moral framework.
Rather than either Pure subjectivism or full-fledged objective moral realism independent of subjective valuations.
My stance upholds the existence of objective moral facts that binds us to rationally derivable ethical obligations while still acknowledging that subjective choices inherent in grounding any moral system.
It aims to strike a balance between validating moral objectivity and the subjective foundations underline every ethical framework.

That's it for this one so what did you think do you follow any of these moral systems do you think these are excellent examples you can give a theist if you're asked about objective morals.
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Moral Realism Without a God

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes: KIV
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LuckyR
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Re: Moral Realism Without a God

Post by LuckyR »

What do you mean by: "have"?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Moral Realism Without a God

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

LuckyR wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 6:36 am What do you mean by: "have"?
It is author who used 'have' not me.

According the video,
what the author implied is the question,
does moral realism exists without a God or
are moral elements objective and real as real things like what science confirms as scientifically real.
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LuckyR
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Re: Moral Realism Without a God

Post by LuckyR »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 7:50 am
LuckyR wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 6:36 am What do you mean by: "have"?
It is author who used 'have' not me.

According the video,
what the author implied is the question,
does moral realism exists without a God or
are moral elements objective and real as real things like what science confirms as scientifically real.
Putting aside the impracticality of moral objectivism, while using gods as the purported source of the objectivity of morals is internally logical, they are certainly not the only potential source of objectivity.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Moral Realism Without a God

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

LuckyR wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 9:13 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 7:50 am
LuckyR wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 6:36 am What do you mean by: "have"?
It is author who used 'have' not me.

According the video,
what the author implied is the question,
does moral realism exists without a God or
are moral elements objective and real as real things like what science confirms as scientifically real.
Putting aside the impracticality of moral objectivism, while using gods as the purported source of the objectivity of morals is internally logical, they are certainly not the only potential source of objectivity.
If we look at things merely on a either 100% black or 100% white basis, then there is only one choice without consideration for the other. This is a hindrance to progress.
On the other hand, if we deliberate reality in terms of grey scales then there is room for progress.

To me, it is impossible for god [illusory] to exists as real.
However, is it pragmatic for theists to believe in an illusory God just like a real Santa for a toddler.
Morality is inherent in human nature.
So, there can be moral elements within theism.
Question is, is that objective?

Morality within theism can be deliberated objective if we view in one of the pragmatic sense in;
There are Two Senses of 'Objectivity'
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39326
1. The human-based Framework and System sense [FS]
2. The philosophical realism mind independence sense.

However, because theism is grounded on an illusion, its objectivity is on the lowest scale of objectivity, i.e. near ZERO or negligible in contrast to the science FS as the gold standard.

There is no denial there is morality [noun] within human nature.
The question is it is real, i.e. moral realism.

Also,
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265
1. The human-based Framework and System sense [FS]
2. The philosophical realism [PR] mind independence sense.

Sense 1 re FS is realistic while the PR sense is illusory.
As such, there is real morality, i.e. moral realism within the FS sense, but illogical to have moral realism within the PR sense.
In your case, you are relying on the PR sense of reality, so that is illusory.

On the other hand, the human-based FS is realistic.
Thus, moral realism contingent upon a human-based moral FS is realistic.
Therefore, moral realism exists naturally without a God.
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