Marxism

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Lorikeet
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Marxism

Post by Lorikeet »

Voegelin, Eric wrote:Again, the determination of this area of agreement will permit us to fix the point at which Marx departs from Bakunin. Marx does not share the primordial lust of destruction with his rival, nor the absence of any idea of order. He is willing to guide the revolution by providing it with a “scientific” system of social theory and a “philosophy” of history. In this respect, the organizing will of Marx, his dictatorial intellectualism, is related to that of Comte. Bakunin, on the other hand, heartily detests both Marx and Comte because their "authoritarianism" would limit his lusty passion for destruction by visions of responsible, ordering action. Moreover, Marx goes beyond Bakunin in defining the, proletariat as the specific agent of the revolution instead of the vague "poor classes”, “masses” and “real people.” In the 1860’s, when Marx is engaged in laying the groundwork for an international organization of the proletariat, Bakunin still indulges in romantic pamphlets glorifying the Russian robber. Nevertheless, while at the end of their lives the scientistic, authoritarian socialism of Marx and the anarchistic revolutionary existence of Bakunin have moved far apart, we should be aware of the common beginnings. The Marxian line of revolution was successful because of the elements that were missing in Bakunin, but the system of Marx would never have been written and never exerted its influence unless it had originated in the genuine pathos of revolutionary existence that we find in its purity in Bakunin.
[From Enlightenment to Revolution]
Voegelin, Eric wrote:The starting point for the independent movement of Marx’s thought seems to be a gnostic position which he inherited from Hegel, specifically, the Marxian gnosis expresses itself in the conviction that the movement of the intellect in the consciousness of the empirical self is the ultimate source of knowledge for the understanding of the universe.
Faith and the life of the spirit are expressly excluded as an independent source of order in the soul. Moreover, this conviction is from the beginning accompanied by an attitude of revolt against ‘religion’ as a sphere which recognizes the existence of a realissimum beyond human consciousness. This is the Marxian position as it appears in his doctoral dissertation of 1840-41.
[right][From Enlightenment to Revolution][/right]
Voegelin confirms the Gnostic connection between all three Abrahamic variants and Communism, through Marx's Jewish heritage.
Voegelin, Eric wrote:The attitude of revolt becomes historically effective through the fascinating program of incarnating the logos in the world by means of revolutionary human action. For Hegel, the logos (reason) was incarnating itself in reality, and because reason was in reality its manifestation could be discovered through the reflection of the philosopher. His philosophy, of history was a contemplation of the actual unfolding of the Idea in reality. Never could the unfolding of the Idea be made the intention of human action. We should be aware in particular that Hegel’s definition of the great historical figure as a person whose actions are in conformance with the movement of the Idea is not a recipe for becoming great historical figure by producing this conformance at will. Nevertheless, this is precisely the perversion in which Marx indulged. Hegel’s gnosis was contemplative. Instead of abandoning gnosis and restoring true contemplation, Marx abandoned contemplation and translated gnosis into action.
[From Enlightenment to Revolution]
If ‘god’ is an irrational human construct, then man would become that which is absent – the ideal man.

Voegelin, Eric wrote:This characterization must be qualified, however, insofar as Marx does not conceive the logos as a transcendental spirit descending into man, but as a true ‘essence’ of man which comes into its own through the process of history. Man, that is the true man, must be emancipated from historical encumbrances which still hold him in fetters in order to Achieve his completely free existence in society. The true essence of man, his divine self-consciousness, is present in the world as the ferment which drives history forward in a meaningful manner. At some point, this essence will break through-first in one man, then in a few, until the great revolution will bring the full social realization of true man.
The conception of this breakthrough is substantially the same as in Comte’s realization of the positive mind in one individual through the process of his meditation and the expansion of this personal renovation into social regeneration. The Marxian spiritual disease, thus, like the Comtean, consists in the self-divinization and self-salvation of man; an intramundane logos of human consciousness is substituted for the transcendental logos. What appeared on the level of symptoms as anti-philosophism and logophobia, must etiologically be understood as the revolt of immanent consciousness against the spiritual order of the world.
[From Enlightenment to Revolution]  
Man must become his own god - straight out of Jewish mysticism - because it is inevitable - he has to say in the mater.
Denial of free-will is a way of concealing motive within mystical fatalism - represented as a "ferment" of historical inevitability.
Marx adopts Abrahamism to rebel against nature, promising that this necessary for man to become his own god.
Marxism is a revolution against nature, and the creation of a truly 'free man' - a self-creating man,' only this emancipation must be collective.
American ism promises the same through money and the attainment of the "right" to pretend he is whatever he pleases. Money is divine sanctioning, via the collective's monetary approval.
In Marxism this approval is collectivized and evenly distributed. Not a few chosen but all will be emancipated form nature.
Voegelin, Eric wrote:The Marxian critical practice starts with the critique of religion and it proceeds to the critique of politics and economics. The problem of this systematically second phase has been formulated by Marx in the Kritih der Hegelschen Rechtsphitosophie. ”The critique of religion ends with the insight that man is the highest being for man; this implies the categorical imperative to overthrow all relationships in which man is a humiliated, oppressed, neglected, despised being.” “The critique of religion is the presupposition of all critique.” In the illusionary reality of heaven, man “has looked for the superman”; instead he found the reflection of himself. Now he realizes that he himself is the superman and he will no
longer be satisfied with recognizing himself as the “non-man (Unmensch)” that he formerly believed himself to be. “Man makes religion, not religion man.” “Religion is the self-consciousness and self-feeling of a man who either has not yet found himself, or who has lost
himself again.” This man, however (directed against Feuerbach!), is not an abstract being outside the world. “Man is the world of man,” that is state and society. This social world produces religion “as a perverted consciousness of the world because it is a perverted (verkert) world.”
Religion is the general theory of a perverted world. It gives, imaginary reality to human essence (Wesen) because human essence has no true-reality.” “The struggle against religion is the struggle against that world of which religion is the spiritual aroma.” Religious misery is the manifestation of real misery, and at the same time a protest against it.
Religion is the cry of oppressed creatures – “it is the opium of the people.
[From Enlightenment to Revolution]  
See the connection with Nietzsche’s and Nazism conceptions of Übermensch?
The difference is that Marxism wants to make it a collective program. All will become gods living in their own created realities, not only the few who exploit the many towards this end.
Nature abhors a vacuum and the power vacuum left when Abrahamism’s one-god’ was psychologically assassinated must be filled by a man himself. The only disagreement is over whom and how this status will be attained.
Voegelin, Eric wrote: The last sentences should destroy the assumption (which is frequently made) that Marx was impressed by the actual misery of the worker in his time, and that with the material improvement of the works lot the causes of the revolution would disappear. Social reform
is not a remedy for the evil which Marx has in mind. This evil is the growth of the economic structure of modern society into an “objective power” to which man must submit by threat of starvation. The principal characteristic features which appear on and off in the descriptions
of Marx can now be summarized:
(1) The separation of the worker from his tools. This characteristic is determined by industrial technology. No man can individually own and operate the tools of modern industrial production. The ‘factory or,
generally, the ‘place of work’ cannot be the ‘home.’
(2) Job dependence. This characteristic has the same determining cause. No man can earn a living in an industrial system unless he finds a job in some ‘enterprise’ which assembles the tools for production and markets the product.
(3) Division of labor. No man can produce any whole product. The process of production must be centrally planned, and the single worker is confined to the phase in the process assigned to him. Marx was very much aware of the supreme insult to human dignity which lies in the
fact that at the end of his life, when a man summarizes what he has accomplished, he may have to say: all my life I have spent in cooperating in the production of a certain type of Grand Rapids furniture and thereby degraded humanity in myself and others.
(4) Specialization. This characteristic is intimately connected with the preceding one. Even if the total product is not an insult to human dignity, the productivity of man has no appreciable range for unfolding if his work is confined to a small sector of production on which as a
whole he has no influence.
(5) Economic interdependence. No man can live a whole life if his existence is permanently threatened, not by natural catastrophes as in the case of a peasant, but by social actions beyond his control - be they new inventions, or the closing of a market through a tariff, or miscalculation of management, or change in customers taste, or a general economic crisis.
[From Enlightenment to Revolution]
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Lorikeet
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Re: Marxism

Post by Lorikeet »

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Lorikeet
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Re: Marxism

Post by Lorikeet »

All socioeconomic systems necessitate central control.
The difference between them is the method and the degree.

Humans are social organisms, they cannot exist outside groups, except for some notable exceptions that prefer the hermit lifestyle.
Anarchism fails because it cannot survive in a world where some other group practices more authoritarian methods to muster and direct a group's aggregate energies.
Anarchists are mostly parasitical individuals who prefer to believe they've not bought into conventional beliefs so that they can exploit those that have.
Marx's dream was for a spiritual revolution, imagined as an 'evolution of human psyche, liberating men from the exploitation of others.

Unfortunately, exploitation is part of nature.
In Marxists contexts, herbivores exploit the work of plants, and carnivores exploit the work of herbivores.... and children exploit their parents.

But in nature shared genes means that a beta male, unable to compete with other males, may find solace in participating in the upbringing of a wolf pack's puppies who share its genes.
In the past the tribe's poor shared blood ties with the leader/king, and a heritage.
This is no longer the case in modern ethnically/racially, culturally, heterogenous systems, where the bonding principle is often an abstract ideal, such as "liberty", or "god."
mickthinks
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Re: Marxism

Post by mickthinks »

Erudite gibberish is still just gibberish.
Gary Childress
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Re: Marxism

Post by Gary Childress »

mickthinks wrote: Sat May 11, 2024 7:41 pm Erudite gibberish is still just gibberish.
There's nothing more tragic than a person who doesn't have any friends.
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Lorikeet
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Re: Marxism

Post by Lorikeet »

Quote - Yockey, Francis Parker (5).jpg
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Lorikeet
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Re: Marxism

Post by Lorikeet »

Quote - Spengler, Otto (8).jpg
Memetic evolution....

From Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, to Abrahamism, and then to secular forms of the same....Marxism, Postmodernism...
The current Transexual insanity is linked to the delusion that an incorporeal soul exists within our corporeal bodies.
promethean75
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Re: Marxism

Post by promethean75 »

When i see all the untalented unremarkable average working class fucks who've never given purpose and god and politics and all that a second thought but who are nonetheless perfectly at ease and basically satisfied with their lot, two things happen. I envy them, and I'm disappointed by them. I also ask myself why I'd want to give marxism a shot when these people don't seem to be raising a tremendous fuss about their financial and work circumstances. The problem is, I'd not want the exceptionally gifted people's economic freedom jeopardized just to better indulge the working class ordinaries with more money per hour, cheaper housing, what have you.

I'd rather honor the old idea of free trade among people even though, as we are seeing, that leads to a few people amassing obscene amounts of wealth at the expense of a lot of people's time and labor.

The economic darwinism we are witnessing has been artificially modified to select for winners who manipulate the market environment in which the competition occurs. But then this too is just a natural mechanism and not really 'artificial' at all.

It's like this. If the working class rise up... more power to them. States evolve and change all the time. Revolution would be just as natural as the present-day liberal free markets that exist. If not, let the economic elite thrive like they always have. I mean, it's not like something has gone terribly wrong through history. Master classes have always existed, and the plebs have always done the work.

You know, never has anyone ever asked me why I'm so hot for marxism if I'm a shameless libertine nihilist who abhors even the thought of 'equality' and who finds damn near everyone he meets utterly uninteresting such that he shouldn't be so concerned with their wellbeing.

I suppose i just don't like what happens to people when they become billionaires. There's a snootiness or something that says this person is mistaken about how awesome they are. They stopped being awesome once their companies were launched and started turning profits. That's when the companies vitality is owed to the employees, not the owner.

How many thousands of Musk's tech guys are just as talented and intelligent as him but make billions less than him? Ah, so Musk is no longer exceptional. He's no longer even needed in his own chain of production. Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg, all those geniuses.

I mean, c'mon man.
promethean75
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Re: Marxism

Post by promethean75 »

See what I've done is conjured up this dialectical conspiracy in my head because I've got a personal beef with the state and can trace my conflict with it back to circumstances afforded by capitalism. The capitalist work ethic in the court. Prosecutor's moving criminals through the court system with plea bargains like a fuckin factory conveyor belt to fill private owned prisons that get paid by federal and state government to keep filled.

See what i mean? I freaked out and thought i had a special interest in usurping capitalism... if only to drain the courtroom swamps.

Now that's great, but once this contingency is removed from consideration, my only remaining complaint would be the struggling in the late 90s to 2010ish i endured financially as a wage worker in construction. Never saved a dime. Check to check, etc. Also, the outrageous medical bills for my back surgery. Oh, also, the judge who ruled in my boss's favor when he owed me like $400. Never got it, and had to pay court costs and all that shit. Oh, also, the bedbug infested apartment i lived in because the freemarket allows slum landlords to rent out shitholes. Other than that, the basic cost of living is hard, but not nearly as hard as it was before i started working for myself.

This means that had i started working for myself much sooner - rather than fucking around and making bad determined decisions that landed me in jail - i probably wouldn't have become a fulminating marxist anarchist.

Jesus i think all this time I've been lying to myself saying i give a damn about the workers when i really don't... and i was just looking for an excuse for my cause... my despising the state and capitalism because of some anomaly in my life that showed me the worst of it.

N was right, man. I'm a fuckin socialist loser who resents snooty rich guys and outrageous bills. Maybe i should read Rand or something. I want to be like the john galt of home renovations, repairs and new construction, you guys. I could get legit, get insurance, and carry employees if i wasn't such a soft ass socialist pussy who's feelings are hurt whenever he makes a buck off of someone else's labor.

My god, I've been totally brainwashed by the ethos of the secular christian altruism at the core of the socialist doctrine. I may have killed christianity, but its morality remains in my sympathy for the common man. How could this have happened to me? How could i have been so obstinate, so blind to this fact? How could you have let me?
Wizard22
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Re: Marxism

Post by Wizard22 »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:58 amAlso, the outrageous medical bills for my back surgery.
What happened to your back? I've let my herniated discs heal on their own, and am way better off for it. It's insane how people will turn to surgery, or be convinced into it by the Health Industry, and be worse off for it...
promethean75
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Re: Marxism

Post by promethean75 »

Not this pain you don't, bro. It was on the fourth attempt to crawl into the waiting room at the hospital and get help that they finally decided i wasn't lying and trying to get painkillers. How cool is that? You get to be denied medical attention because you could be a pill junkie. I fuckin hate pills. They make me puke. I can't even keep a 10 milligram oxycodone down.

When the doctor took x-rays, he couldn't believe i was even able to stand up. I was in surgery two days later.

$26,000. Hour long operation. Haven't paid em a penny.
Wizard22
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Re: Marxism

Post by Wizard22 »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:38 pm Not this pain you don't, bro. It was on the fourth attempt to crawl into the waiting room at the hospital and get help that they finally decided i wasn't lying and trying to get painkillers. How cool is that? You get to be denied medical attention because you could be a pill junkie. I fuckin hate pills. They make me puke. I can't even keep a 10 milligram oxycodone down.

When the doctor took x-rays, he couldn't believe i was even able to stand up. I was in surgery two days later.

$26,000. Hour long operation. Haven't paid em a penny.
I've had multiple herniated discs; I know the difference between "back pain" and spinal pain. They're in different universes. That said, surgeries usually make em worse over time, and can permanently cripple.
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accelafine
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Re: Marxism

Post by accelafine »

promethean75 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:38 pm Not this pain you don't, bro. It was on the fourth attempt to crawl into the waiting room at the hospital and get help that they finally decided i wasn't lying and trying to get painkillers. How cool is that? You get to be denied medical attention because you could be a pill junkie. I fuckin hate pills. They make me puke. I can't even keep a 10 milligram oxycodone down.

When the doctor took x-rays, he couldn't believe i was even able to stand up. I was in surgery two days later.

$26,000. Hour long operation. Haven't paid em a penny.
What do you expect, when you live in a third world country? Oh, but at least you are FREE :lol:
godelian
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Re: Marxism

Post by godelian »

promethean75 wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2024 12:21 am It's like this. If the working class rise up... more power to them.
When the working class rises up to rein in an abusive ruling mafia, you would expect that the next government would have less power and be less intrusive as a result.

That is, however, not what tends to happen.

A revolutionary government will typically be even more omnipresent than the government that they replaced, with even more scope for abuse of power, arbitrary rule, and ill-advised policies.

When the working class rises up, it is typically just a prelude to the working class dying off in large numbers at their own hands.
promethean75
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Re: Marxism

Post by promethean75 »

That's exactly right. I have finally decided that the vision of saint marx is too advanced for mankind, something that could only exist if man was a physiologically and psychologically different animal.

I suppose the irony is enough for me, though. That the thing men most loathed, feared, and got consistently wrong in both practice and interpretation was, in fact, the very thing that would have saved them... wretched and primitive as they were.
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