Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Iwannaplato]

Perhaps you understand the degree to which the Christian religion and doctrines are intimately bound up with the idea of resistance and rebellion? It is a fundamental tenet. The rebellion of the angels and their fall down to the earth level where, according to these worldpictures, they have unfettered capabilities to influence men. These are the *pictures* that we can no longer entertain because of our modern perspectives.

Oh, my own beliefs are at least that weird.

And to add: whatever is happening is very very strange. Modern people have just gotten used to their metaphysics. All metaphysical ideas about the universe - and by that I mean all ontologies - are utterly amazing.

The universe has always been here. Stunningly strange.
The universe began. Stunningly strange.

I understand that entities with personalities is strange to modern people, because they have long thought of themselves as the only sentient entities - perhaps having a belief in a transcendent deity lopped on top, and as an entity they have little direct empirical contact with.

But entities with personalities, that's not particularly strange to me.

The modern physicalism default of dead matter with the very, very rare exception of something thinking/feeling is not my default.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Catholicism is already a bastardization of Jesus' message.

I can see why and by what reasoning you say that. But of course (I assume) you know that Catholics and theologians do not see it that way.

[phyllo]

Catholicism is already a bastardization of Jesus' message.

I can see why and by what reasoning you say that. But of course (I assume) you know that Catholics and theologians do not see it that way.

Sure.

But all you have to do is look at all the ideas in Catholicism that Jesus didn't teach.

For example, original sin. (Since it has come up in the thread.)
He never claimed there was any such thing. It's a completely foreign idea.

Another example, the trinity.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And to add: whatever is happening is very very strange. Modern people have just gotten used to their metaphysics. All metaphysical ideas about the universe — and by that I mean all ontologies — are utterly amazing.

With this I agree.

There are facets of the Catholic theological view which I find hard to adapt myself to (my thinking and visualizing). Like a square peg into a round hole. However, and this is something René Guénon pointed out, there are traces of older metaphysical concepts in traditional Catholicism.

[Harbal]

And to add: whatever is happening is very very strange. Modern people have just gotten used to their metaphysics. All metaphysical ideas about the universe — and by that I mean all ontologies — are utterly amazing.

With this I agree.

There are facets of the Catholic theological view which I find hard to adapt myself to (my thinking and visualizing). Like a square peg into a round hole. However, and this is something René Guénon pointed out, there are traces of older metaphysical concepts in traditional Catholicism.

I am no authority on the Catholic Church, it may surprise you to learn, but I am aware of some of its ceremony and rigmarole, and it strikes me that you would have to be brought up with it in order not to see it all as totally weird and alien.

[phyllo]

"Weird and alien" doesn't necessarily mean bad and useless.

There are all sorts of ceremonies and rituals which are psychologically beneficial. For example, rites of passage, death rites, wedding rites, etc

It has to be examined on a case by case basis.

[Harbal]

"Weird and alien" doesn't necessarily mean bad and useless.

I was thinking of its attractivity, not its uselessness.

[Iwannaplato]

Catholicism is already a bastardization of Jesus' message.

I can see why and by what reasoning you say that. But of course (I assume) you know that Catholics and theologians do not see it that way.

Sure.

But all you have to do is look at all the ideas in Catholicism that Jesus didn't teach.

For example, original sin. (Since it has come up in the thread.)
He never claimed there was any such thing. It's a completely foreign idea.

Another example, the trinity.

The Trinity's got an oddly Hindu flavor, like these avatars of Brahman or something.
And original sin... that seems anti-jesus.

But then sadly Jesus did talk about Hell. On the other hand, I'm not sure Catholicism really understood that Jesus was a mystic and could have meant things quite other than what they and their councils decided.

[Iwannaplato]

I am no authority on the Catholic Church, it may surprise you to learn, but I am aware of some of its ceremony and rigmarole, and it strikes me that you would have to be brought up with it in order not to see it all as totally weird and alien.

It's got nothing on English Courtrooms.

[Harbal]

I am no authority on the Catholic Church, it may surprise you to learn, but I am aware of some of its ceremony and rigmarole, and it strikes me that you would have to be brought up with it in order not to see it all as totally weird and alien.

It's got nothing on English Courtrooms.

Yes, and I also try to avoid those as well.

[Alexis Jacobi]

and it strikes me that you would have to be brought up with it in order not to see it all as totally weird and alien.

This is an aside but years back we had alien visitors — odd, friendly folk who did not talk much. Well, as you might have surmised they really tripped out when we introduced the dog to them. It was like they were on mushrooms. But everything grabbed their attention and they became fixated for hours, gibbering among themselves in their squeaky dialect.

Now here’s the strange thing: this video did not entertain them or bring any glee as did nearly every other one on home appliance operation and certainly the cat and duck videos. It deeply disturbed them and immediately afterwards they got in their craft and left. I don’t really know why.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Another example, the trinity.

The Trinity's got an oddly Hindu flavor, like these avatars of Brahman or something.
And original sin... that seems anti-jesus.

[Alexis Jacobi]

But all you have to do is look at all the ideas in Catholicism that Jesus didn't teach.

You are mistaken but only because you are not taking into consideration that, according to the accounts, Jesus spent a long time with all sorts of people in his resurrected form. In Catholic theological lore, similar to the Jewish oral tradition, many things are said to have been revealed and taught.

This is one reason why, for Catholics, scripture itself or alone is somewhat discounted by 1) everything believed to have been revealed to the Apostles by the resurrected Jesus; 2) through the continued teaching of the Holy Spirit; and 3) by those saints seen as “illuminated” with understanding.

[Iwannaplato]

Another example, the trinity.

The Trinity's got an oddly Hindu flavor, like these avatars of Brahman or something.
And original sin... that seems anti-jesus.

We get to Catholicism and the Trinity and it says

This is not to be understood as a belief in (or worship of) three Gods, nor as a belief that there are three subjectively-perceived "aspects" in one God, both of which the Catholic Church condemns as heresy. The Catholic Church also rejects the notions that God is "composed" of its three persons and that "God" is a genus containing the three persons.

And not positive explanation is forthcoming. It's not those things.
So, I looked at some Catholic websites and got

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

And then to justify this

The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step.
b
First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

I think this shows a very narrow understanding of mystic language. That Jesus was referring to three distinct persons, rather than, say, the way many mystical Hindus would be trying to describe phenomenologically aspects of their experiences and aspects of the experiences of a deity.

And, by the way, I am not saying I know what Jesus is supposed to have meant by what he is supposed to have said as reported by the writers of the Gospels. But the way such statements make in specific context to specific listeners get appropriates by bureaucracies often looks very naive to me. The reification and misinterpretation of context-dependent communication which was intended to elicit things in the people at that moment and not necessarily be treated as representational language'.

One little council can decide that some mystic meant X, and 40 generations can suffer partly based on a gassy breakfast served the participants.

One Irony is that the council is specifically multicultural, with diverse ethnicities and diverse origins in terms of states. Christianity is one of the early globalist projects.

[Wizard22]

I would like to add an observation:

Liberals, Leftists, Atheists, Etc. always claimed to me that America was built "for free expression of religion", but this is historically and realistically very false. The Anglo-American Colonists and Settlers to the United States were all strongly Protestant-Christians. So their "freedom from religion" actually was "freedom from Catholic Order". It was *NOT* and *NEVER INTENDED TO BE* "freedom for all religions". The Protestants did not have Jews/Judaism in mind for acceptance, and they did not, by the way. The Protestants did not have Moslems/Islam in mind for acceptance, either. What the early Constitution intended was an anti-Catholic "Christianity". And this was because the Anglo-Colonizers wanted to distance and separate themselves from the Papacy's political classical dominion of European History and European Culture.

The "American Project" was intended to be something different, by its Creators and our Forefathers.


However, in light of this, seeing what has become of Anglo-Protestantism, and its various, countless offshoots... it can safely be claimed now, and the argument asserted, that none of these 'Protestant' outlying (per)versions of Christianity have lived up to their ideals, perhaps save a few (perhaps the Amish or some of the Ultra-Conservative Mormons have 'succeeded' in their re-interpretations of Christian Religion as of today 2024AD). Aside from the Amish and Mormons, how has Protestant-Christian Culture in America and Western Civilization worked out???

Not well... anybody with eyes to see, eyes open, anybody who wants to discover the Philosophical Truth of life... will see the ugliness, rot, and corruption pervasive in the West.

Similar to that within Hairball's own rotten soul, where he defends and encourages "It aint' gonna lick it itself" to a bunch of children at dragtime story hour.


Because Protestantism has failed in the West, why choose another Culture or Religion that has not already Succeeded, that has not already proved itself??? Catholicism works. Only The Church, and God, can truly and really protect: the Family, Marriage, Sacrament, Communion, Society. Without these forces at work and play...there's no hope for the West.

There's NO REASON to marry, or have kids, in a Secular, Twisted, Perverted, Hellscape world.

You might as well try to entice children into sex acts, as the Far-Left already does, and Hairball encourages with his blind, loathsome, ignorance.


Because then it's a free-for-all, Immorality. It's Hell on Earth. No rules. No social commitments. No society. All against All.