Is morality objective or subjective?

[Harbal]

The fact that you see no ethical problem in trying to frighten people into believing in God tells us all we need to know about the Bible.

I'm not "trying to frighten people." I'm trying to tell people the truth.

It might be true that you believe it, but that doesn't make it the truth.

If some realities are frightening, then so be it.

We are not talking about reality, we are talking about superstition. Can't you tone it down a bit, and just tell people not to walk under ladders, or something?

Better that I tell them than that I don't.

It's not better for them if they are foolish enough to believe you.

What sort of hateful person would I be if I didn't point out the obvious, while there was still time?

You'd be a normal person, I suppose. But if you really are that concerned about people's welfare, why don't you warn them about the dangers of smoking, or eating too much salt?

The good news is that nobody needs to remain frightened.

The even better news is that they don't need to be frightened in the first place.

[Immanuel Can]

All I'm saying is this: in this life, death is a certainty. What man is not wise enough to see that preparations must be made?

I've spent most of my life keeping my nose clean in preparation for death.

How unfortunate. That's bad news: you've been wasting your time completely, because if your goal was to ingratiate yourself to God that way, it was always impossible. As the Bible says, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us," (Titus 3:5), and again, "for by grace you are saved, through faith; and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

It's very plain: it's by accepting the gracious gift of God of free salvation that we enter into relationship with Him. Works of any kind, good or bad, are attempts to take the credit ourselves or to strengthen our own alienation from Him; but they are nothing that will endear us to God.

The good news is that it's not too late to do things the right way.

[Immanuel Can]

The fact that you see no ethical problem in trying to frighten people into believing in God tells us all we need to know about the Bible.

I'm not "trying to frighten people." I'm trying to tell people the truth.

It might be true that you believe it, but that doesn't make it the truth.

My belief doesn't make it false either. I believe that we are all going to die. That's also true.

If some realities are frightening, then so be it.

We are not talking about reality, we are talking about superstition.

So you say: but what if you're wrong?

Better that I tell them than that I don't.

It's not better for them if they are foolish enough to believe you.

I think it is. And it might well be. The truth is, we're all going to find out. And that, none of us needs to doubt.

What sort of hateful person would I be if I didn't point out the obvious, while there was still time?

You'd be a normal person, I suppose.

A normal hateful person, perhaps.

The good news is that nobody needs to remain frightened.

The even better news is that they don't need to be frightened in the first place.

And yet, you said I was starting to frighten you.

[Harbal]

I'm not "trying to frighten people." I'm trying to tell people the truth.

It might be true that you believe it, but that doesn't make it the truth.

My belief doesn't make it false either. I believe that we are all going to die. That's also true.

Your belief that we are going to die is based on solid evidence, and probably personal observation, you didn't just get it out of some old book, or a Christmas cracker.

We are not talking about reality, we are talking about superstition.

So you say: but what if you're wrong?

The next time I open my freezer I will be assuming there isn't an ice goblin inside, just waiting to beat me to death with a bag of frozen chicken breasts, but what if I'm wrong.

It's not better for them if they are foolish enough to believe you.

I think it is. And it might well be. The truth is, we're all going to find out. And that, none of us needs to doubt.

Yes, we are going to find out we spent our lives worrying pointlessly.

You'd be a normal person, I suppose.

A normal hateful person, perhaps.

People who don't think they have a right to influence other people into making life changing decisions are not usually considered hateful, but, rather, respectful.

The even better news is that they don't need to be frightened in the first place.

And yet, you said I was starting to frighten you.

Yes, because it was starting to feel creepy, like being stalked.

[Immanuel Can]

My belief doesn't make it false either. I believe that we are all going to die. That's also true.

Your belief that we are going to die is based on solid evidence, and probably personal observation, you didn't just get it out of some old book, or a Christmas cracker.

You know what else I believe? We're all going to die. Not just me. And I'm right about that, too.

What have you done about it?

I think it is. And it might well be. The truth is, we're all going to find out. And that, none of us needs to doubt.

Yes, we are going to find out we spent our lives worrying pointlessly.

Do you want to find out whether or not that's true?

Want it or not, you will.

A normal hateful person, perhaps.

People who don't think they have a right to influence other people into making life changing decisions are not usually considered hateful, but, rather, respectful.

That's a bias of our society: "let everybody go to Hell, so long as I appear tolerant." If you think that sentiment serves anybody but the person having it, you're wrong.

[Harbal]

My belief doesn't make it false either. I believe that we are all going to die. That's also true.

Your belief that we are going to die is based on solid evidence, and probably personal observation, you didn't just get it out of some old book, or a Christmas cracker.

You know what else I believe? We're all going to die. Not just me. And I'm right about that, too.

We've just covered that one, and I agree with you.

What have you done about it?

I don't need to do anything about it, it will just sort of happen on its own.

Yes, we are going to find out we spent our lives worrying pointlessly.

Do you want to find out whether or not that's true?

I already know it's true that I won't have spent my life worrying about it.

Want it or not, you will.

Oh no, I won't.

People who don't think they have a right to influence other people into making life changing decisions are not usually considered hateful, but, rather, respectful.

That's a bias of our society: "let everybody go to Hell, so long as I appear tolerant.

It's got nothing to do with being tolerant, it's about not wanting to be responsible for someone doing something that isn't in their best interests.

If you think that sentiment serves anybody but the person having it, you're wrong.

If you want to serve people, do charity work, give practical help to people who need it. Do something that will benefit people while they are alive. All this preaching about God is about how it makes you feel, it's nothing to do with concern for others, it's a thoroughly selfish, self indulgent exercise.

[Gary Childress]

All I'm saying is this: in this life, death is a certainty. What man is not wise enough to see that preparations must be made?

I've spent most of my life keeping my nose clean in preparation for death.

How unfortunate. That's bad news: you've been wasting your time completely. . .

Oh well.

[Harbal]

I've spent most of my life keeping my nose clean in preparation for death.

How unfortunate. That's bad news: you've been wasting your time completely. . .

Oh well.

Do not take any of this seriously, Gary; I absolutely forbid it.

[Gary Childress]

How unfortunate. That's bad news: you've been wasting your time completely. . .

Oh well.

Do not take any of this seriously, Gary; I absolutely forbid it.

Thanks, Harbal. I appreciate that.

[Immanuel Can]

Your belief that we are going to die is based on solid evidence, and probably personal observation, you didn't just get it out of some old book, or a Christmas cracker.

You know what else I believe? We're all going to die. Not just me. And I'm right about that, too.

We've just covered that one, and I agree with you.

What have you done about it?

I don't need to do anything about it, it will just sort of happen on its own.

Well, I guess one way to go is to wait and find out what comes after.

Not my choice, but it might be yours. And you're free to make it, of course. God Himself won't stop you, if that's what your will is.

Yes, we are going to find out we spent our lives worrying pointlessly.

Do you want to find out whether or not that's true?

I already know it's true that I won't have spent my life worrying about it.

Want it or not, you will.

Oh no, I won't.

In a sense, you're right -- if you're are right, you'll never find out. If you're wrong, you will find out.

People who don't think they have a right to influence other people into making life changing decisions are not usually considered hateful, but, rather, respectful.

That's a bias of our society: "let everybody go to Hell, so long as I appear tolerant.

It's got nothing to do with being tolerant, it's about not wanting to be responsible for someone doing something that isn't in their best interests.

I'd rather you did what WAS in your best interests. But as I say, that's not something I control...nor would I try to.

If you want to serve people, do charity work, give practical help to people who need it.

Well, I get no thrills or "feelings" for my trouble in speaking about Go. Rather, it's the opposite case: that it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe there is a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward. “How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

"If I believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe it, that that truck was bearing down on you, there’s a certain point that I tackle you, and this is more important than that.”

He's still an Atheist, so far as I know. But even he can see what you're having trouble seeing: that from a Christian perspective, there's nothing more practical or necessary than that. Other things, like charity work and practical help, are great in their place, too: but we can't mistake them for anything that is the ultimate good. They may keep the body together, which is a good of a limited kind: but by themselves, they do not do anything for the soul.

[Harbal]

If you want to serve people, do charity work, give practical help to people who need it.

Well, I get no thrills or "feelings" for my trouble in speaking about Go. Rather, it's the opposite case: that it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe there is a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward. “How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

"If I believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe it, that that truck was bearing down on you, there’s a certain point that I tackle you, and this is more important than that.”

He's still an Atheist, so far as I know. But even he can see what you're having trouble seeing: that from a Christian perspective, there's nothing more practical or necessary than that. Other things, like charity work and practical help, are great in their place, too: but we can't mistake them for anything that is the ultimate good. They may keep the body together, which is a good of a limited kind: but by themselves, they do not do anything for the soul.

This is the thing I have the most difficulty with. Am I right in thinking that you believe God loves every single person, and wants the best for them? Well I'll assume I am right in that. I don't love everybody, in fact, I'm not very fond of people in general, yet even I find myself feeling sympathy for those in need, whatever their need might be. I am usually open to helping people if I can. To me, that seems like a very worthwhile thing to do, to try to help those who genuinely need it, and I imagine you agree that God also thinks it is worthwhile. Even so, in terms of creditworthiness, God thinks that comes a poor second to our devotion to him. That seems to be the only none negotiable demand, and everything else is secondary. What I really don't understand is how anyone can believe that such a practically useless exercise as giving yourself over to the adoration of God is more important than how we, as human beings, treat one another. That sort of mentality, in my opinion, is totally screwed up.

Anyway, you say that unless I embrace God my soul will be damned for eternity, but why on earth would I believe that? You might say I should believe it because it says so in the Bible, but the Bible means nothing to me, and I have absolutely no reason to take a word of it seriously. I won't ask you to prove to me that what the Bible says is true, but I'm curious if you could give me any reason to think it even might be.

[Gary Childress]

You know what else I believe? We're all going to die. Not just me. And I'm right about that, too.

We've just covered that one, and I agree with you.

What have you done about it?

I don't need to do anything about it, it will just sort of happen on its own.

Well, I guess one way to go is to wait and find out what comes after.

Not my choice, but it might be yours. And you're free to make it, of course. God Himself won't stop you, if that's what your will is.

Do you want to find out whether or not that's true?

I already know it's true that I won't have spent my life worrying about it.

Want it or not, you will.

Oh no, I won't.

In a sense, you're right -- if you're are right, you'll never find out. If you're wrong, you will find out.

That's a bias of our society: "let everybody go to Hell, so long as I appear tolerant.

It's got nothing to do with being tolerant, it's about not wanting to be responsible for someone doing something that isn't in their best interests.

I'd rather you did what WAS in your best interests. But as I say, that's not something I control...nor would I try to.

If you want to serve people, do charity work, give practical help to people who need it.

Well, I get no thrills or "feelings" for my trouble in speaking about Go. Rather, it's the opposite case: that it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe there is a heaven and hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life or whatever, and you think it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward. “How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?”

"If I believed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe it, that that truck was bearing down on you, there’s a certain point that I tackle you, and this is more important than that.”

He's still an Atheist, so far as I know. But even he can see what you're having trouble seeing: that from a Christian perspective, there's nothing more practical or necessary than that. Other things, like charity work and practical help, are great in their place, too: but we can't mistake them for anything that is the ultimate good. They may keep the body together, which is a good of a limited kind: but by themselves, they do not do anything for the soul.

To be honest, it's kind of insulting to think that a serial killer can theoretically repent and go to Heaven and someone like me would go to Hell basically for no other reason than I don't feign reverence for a God that I don't think deserves reverence. I'm sorry for being me. I'm sorry for failing your notion of what constitutes a good person.

[Immanuel Can]

To be honest, it's kind of insulting to think that a serial killer can theoretically repent and go to Heaven and someone like me would go to Hell basically for no other reason than I don't feign reverence for a God that I don't think deserves reverence.

Well, I guess you could say the Apostle Paul was pretty much a "serial killer." At least he was a dedicated persecutor of Christians, who enthusiastically was "ravaging the church, entering house after house; and he would drag away men and women and put them in prison." (Acts 8:3) And he was forgiven, and became the chief voice for early Christianity. However, how many of the very religious, self-confident and sanctimonious Pharisees ever pleased God? Not many...but a few, even among them; because God can find ways to save even the proud and self-righteous, if they will accept it.

Everything depends not on what you have done, but on what you do about what you've done. There are only two types of humans: sinners, and repentant sinners. There are no non-sinners. God's willingness to forgive is very generous; but the will of men to admit their sins and seek forgiveness is not very great, especially among those who think they are personally good enough that they need no repentance, no forgiveness, and no salvation.

So it's all about us deciding what we want our position to be.

[Gary Childress]

...those who think they are personally good enough that they need no repentance, no forgiveness, and no salvation.

Oh we've all made mistakes and done things we regret or wish we hadn't. Generally, I ask my victims for forgiveness or try to make it up to them. No one has done anything to God other than be born into a world we didn't create. But if you go out and screw someone over, then by all means, ask God for forgiveness. It'll probably be a lot easier than facing the person you owe it to, though, irrelevant.

[Will Bouwman]

...it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize."

I used to think that, I even opened the door to Jehovah's witnesses. Then it occurred to me: if your supreme god can't persuade me, what is it that you can do better that might change my mind? Also, dunno if you've noticed, but not all human beings are hims.