Is morality objective or subjective?

[Harbal]

But how can you choose to open the door to the right spiritual beings? Satan can always intervene by giving a false image, even for example hallucination of Jesus or the Virgin Mary!

Nota Bene:

Those who sign up for The 10-Week Course get access to the merch section.

We offer 8oz and 16oz spray bottles of Spirit Verification Solution.

When an Angel appeareth, or the Devil, or Mother Mary, just spray it. If it is real, it remains. If not — poof!

I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you were to inadvertently spray yourself with your verification solution. I do have a hunch, and I'm sure you would be sorely missed.

[bahman]

The first evidence is just the evidence of logic: we all can know, for certain, that all answers cannot possibly be true at the same time, in precisely the same way.

This can be very simply illustrated, if you doubt it.

There are three possibie positions on the existence of God (or gods), leaving aside for the moment the question of the nature of any.

1. There are no gods. (Atheism)
2. There is only one God. (Monotheism)
3. There are many gods. (Polytheism)

What you can see, if you do even rudimentary analysis of these three, is that if 1 is true, both 2 and 3 absolutely have to be false. But if 2 or 3 is true, #1 absolutely has to be false. But also, if 2 is true, then 3 is also false; and if 3 is true, then 2 is false. In fact, all three positions are absolutely rationally exclusionary of the others.

What does this tell us? Not that we have yet shown which of the three we ought to believe: that would, understandably, take more steps. That's not the purpose here. What it DOES tell us, is that no matter what we do, two of the three absolutely have to be false.

And that tells us that either all the Atheists, all the Monotheists, or all the Polytheists are wrong...and two of the three are wrong.

So it's not possible for us to imagine that all religions and ideologies can be true. Some, and by any count a very great number, absolutely have to be false.

Oh, and one more thing...

The three positions outlined above -- no gods, one God, many gods -- are not just mutually-excluding. One more thing deserving of important notice is that they are also comprehensive of all possible positions. There is no chance of 'some other thing,' some 'fourth thing,' being the case, because there is no position not accounted for by the existing three.

If there's ten or twenty or a million gods, then it's #3 that's true. If there's just one, then it's #2. And if there is no such thing at all, it's #1. What other possibility is there? There's none.

What does that tell you?

It tells you, for sure and for certain, that ONE of the three IS true.

Two out of three false. One out of three true. That is beyond possibility of rational doubt.

Now, which is which?

I agree.

[bahman]

But how can you choose to open the door to the right spiritual beings? Satan can always intervene by giving a false image, even for example hallucination of Jesus or the Virgin Mary!

Nota Bene:

Those who sign up for The 10-Week Course get access to the merch section.

We offer 8oz and 16oz spray bottles of Spirit Verification Solution.

When an Angel appeareth, or the Devil, or Mother Mary, just spray it. If it is real, it remains. If not — poof!

I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you were to inadvertently spray yourself with your verification solution. I do have a hunch, and I'm sure you would be sorely missed.

LOL. You have a great sense of humor!

[Alexis Jacobi]

I was a hard sell, at first; I was reluctant to commit to what I was reading. But it's just so utterly different, better and higher than anything else I'd ever read. And I found myself becoming conscious, gradually, as well, of a kind of "presence" with me as I grew to know Christ. My friends began to tell me I was changing (I didn't believe them, at first.) Eventually, He was just much more persuasive and powerful than a reasonable person could resist. And I began to understand why, even among people who do not accept Christ as God, He is a celebrated figure for his extreme moral clarity, exemplarly pattern and mind-altering teaching.

If you get to know Him at all, it soon becomes the decisive experience of an entire life. He's not Somebody that you can have no opinion about, that's for sure. He makes you decide. And the only way you can avoid it is by stopping, and by closing mind and heart to the truth.

There are two faces to the Christian and to Christianity. One face is the “sincere confession” that situates the belief at such a personal level that one wishes not to be rude or insensitive and therefore can only say “I accept that this is your belief and I am happy for you”.

But there is another face as well: one not partly but totally intolerant. Yahweh, hence Jesus, is a possessive, indeed domineering entity. “Don’t believe in me!?! Then thou shalt fry in horrifying pain for ever and ever!”

The faith-declaration reveals what can only be taken at face-value: a man’s recounting of his spiritual life. All people, in all traditions (especially theistic ones) enter into a “relationship” with something on an inner plane. All recount tales of transformation; encounters that seem (are if you will) directed by a mysterious intelligence.

When asked, all will describe what their inner relationship brings them.

So it must not be taken that I — mere Alexis Jacobi — deny any man’s spiritual experience. No, because that is often the really most important thing a man has.

What I oppose — if that is the right word — is that Other Face that remains concealed until, for various reasons, it then appears baring demonic faces.

Doesn’t the allegory of the “wolf in sheep’s clothing” apply? The docile outward presentation falls away and something more wolfish appears.

Is this really the /spiritual truth/ about our World? Is that what it is really like?

I would not deny “spiritual consequences” in this or any other world. But I (seem to) have objections to both the Christian and the Jewish method.

Scratch the surface and there are all sorts of disturbing inconsistencies and an unsettled psychic territory.

Not to mention the bizarre realm of modern Christian Evangelical projection into world-events, present day Israel, “prophecies” and entire realms of hallucination and projection.

All this must be answered for.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you were to inadvertently spray yourself with your verification solution. I do have a hunch, and I'm sure you would be sorely missed.

Inadvertently, you say? I've sprayed away all illusions not the least being myself…

This mysterious spray, developed here in my South American redoubt, is similar to Iocane powder.

[iambiguous]

I'm not. I'm a moral objectivist.

Give me a piece of evidence that your God is a true one.

Thump bahman with this...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... SjDNeMaRoX

IC!

Which clip do you want me to watch? There are many.

Alas, according to IC, one is obligated to watch all of them.

On the other hand, even after I did so here -- viewtopic.php?t=40750 -- IC refused to explore them in depth with me. He responded obtusely "up in the spiritual clouds" once or twice. Then nothing at all.

[Harbal]

I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you were to inadvertently spray yourself with your verification solution. I do have a hunch, and I'm sure you would be sorely missed.

Inadvertently, you say? I've sprayed away all illusions not the least being myself…

This mysterious spray, developed here in my South American redoubt, is similar to Iocane powder.

You are clearly not a man to be trifled with, but trifles and challenges can sometimes be hard to resist.

[bahman]

Let's focus on the type of God you believe is true.

Okay.

I agree that not all religions could be possibly right when there is conflict between them.

Great. That's an obvious thing, isn't it?

Actually, AJ took my attention to the scenario that all religions are false.

But how can you choose to open the door to the right spiritual beings? Satan can always intervene by giving a false image, even for example hallucination of Jesus or the Virgin Mary!

That's a very good question, and the right one, I would suggest.

Well, neither you nor I is an expert on the spiritual world, I assume, though it's clear we both understand something of its existence. We also know we are at a severe disadvantage in negotiating that plane. So what I can suggest is only what the Scriptures themself instruct us to do:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God..." (1 John 4:1-3)

So we can follow the guidance God has given us on that; or if we decide not to, we're really at sea and at a very serious disadvantage in anything involving the spiritual world. We really can't know, then, what would be true and what would be deception.

Well, Satan can pretend that He is from God even if I ask for His confession!

I've read several religious key works: the Koran, the Gita, the Dhammapada, the Tao, and various others. But I'd be lying to you if I left you with any impression that it was this investigation that swayed me to Christianity. I read them later. And I found that confirming, alright; but it wasn't the way I came.

My personal faith came about as a combination of things: knowledge, yes, some of that; but also personal experience.

What sort of experience did you have?

I began to read the gospel of Matthew, and that introduced me to Someone unlike anything I'd ever see before, or ever read about, or ever hear talk, or ever known...Jesus Christ.

I was a hard sell, at first; I was reluctant to commit to what I was reading. But it's just so utterly different, better and higher than anything else I'd ever read. And I found myself becoming conscious, gradually, as well, of a kind of "presence" with me as I grew to know Christ. My friends began to tell me I was changing (I didn't believe them, at first.) Eventually, He was just much more persuasive and powerful than a reasonable person could resist. And I began to understand why, even among people who do not accept Christ as God, He is a celebrated figure for his extreme moral clarity, exemplarly pattern and mind-altering teaching.

If you get to know Him at all, it soon becomes the decisive experience of an entire life. He's not Somebody that you can have no opinion about, that's for sure. He makes you decide. And the only way you can avoid it is by stopping, and by closing mind and heart to the truth.

I read the gospel of Mark and it didn't impress me at all. You know, what if Satan can perform miracles and Jesus was a simple man misguided by Him? What if that was Satan instead of Jesus who performed the miracles? How could be sure about the content of the Bible?

And while I can make some rational arguments for you, I know that part of the picture is going to be missing until you engage in your own search. One does not merely study about God; one has to seek to know God, and know Him relationally, personally, experientially, as well.

What do you mean by seeking to know God? How could you know him personally and experientially if you haven't had a single experience of God?

That's the great thing about experience; if one hasn't had it yet, one still can. My experience won't be precisely your experience, I'm sure; but they won't be wildly unlike, either. But you read, you pray, and you desire to know. And if you follow that path, you'll end up a Christian.

As the Word of God promises, "you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jer. 29:13)

I told you that I accepted Christianity for less than one year. Now I am quite happy with the state of my mind regardless of all the doubts that I have. I am in a permanent state of peace. I don't care what happens to me after I die. I am happy that I was open to all Spirits. They come and go. Satan sometimes tortures me. I am happy to have them all. It is all alright!

And if one is not prepared to do that, God Himself has deliberately left not enough information in the world for you to close on a decisive answer; because His goal is relationship with you, and He is not interested in being known in any lesser way.

So the only way to know God is to know Christ. After encountering Him, you can always make a fruitful search of the other religions, if you're so inclined; and if you want to make a comprehensive search, you can start with Christ and work out from Him. But the main thing is you've got to start, and start for yourself; because second-hand demonstrations are never going to be enough. They can be indicative, but never conclusive. We only really believe what we have personally experienced.

Have you ever encountered Jesus? I encounter Jesus daily. I am however not sure whether I am dealing with my subconscious mind, Satan, or Jesus! How can I be certain what the truth is?

Well, only by the test given above, of course. As I say, you and I are at too much of a disadvantage without that.

I am not sure that that verse works. I asked Satan to confess. He laughed at me and said He is the master of all lies.

...you told me that you haven't had any spiritual experience.

I don't recall having done so. If I ever accidentally gave such an impression, it was certainly a mistake on my part. But I don't think I did. I believe I have always said that experience is part of the matrix of things that make spiritual belief vital.

At most, you can get where I am while you are alive. How could you be sure? I am full of doubt!

That's normal. And that's the thing: faith and doubt aren't opposites. Rather, faith is what you need when you encounter doubt, and doubt is the only reason anybody has to exercise faith. The most important thing is to be sure of the God in whom one's faith is invested, the One who is able to overcome doubt.

But doubt is also necessary. If one is going to risk commitment, it will never come without doubts. Relationship takes risk, the overcoming of doubts and the decision to commit in spite of them.

I agree. They left me a few times after I confessed that I believed them all regardless of what happened to me. It was a difficult time for me. Now, I don't care whether they leave me or not. Nothing can disturb my peace.

You believe in Jesus either by reason, emotion, perception, or imagination. Take your pick and let me know.

It's not an either or, because a person can have multiple reasons and avenues for his/her belief. The strongest and best beliefs are those that are first, reasonable; but second, dynamic, vital and experiential as well. Then, beliefs really ought to alter emotions. They certainly can alter how one perceives things, and what one is able to perceive, as well. And some kinds of beliefs only come through obedience and service; one discovers them in the active process of doing them...like an apprentice learning as the side of a Master. I think it's not even impossible to find a role for "imagination" -- not the fanciful kind, but the kind of imagination that projects hopes forward and guides future projects toward success.

Belief is strengthtened most when all such things triangulate on a single belief, rather than when they are severed from one another and put in opposition to each other. And in Jesus, I found enough to satisfy my reasons, my emotions, my perceptions, and yes, even my imagination...as well as things like my intellectual desires, my sense of a higher purpose, the touchstone of my moral world, and the focus for my future.

So my short answer to your question is simply "Yes, all of those."

Let's please work with reason since others are subjective.

[bahman]

Thump bahman with this...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... SjDNeMaRoX

IC!

Which clip do you want me to watch? There are many.

Alas, according to IC, one is obligated to watch all of them.

On the other hand, even after I did so here -- viewtopic.php?t=40750 -- IC refused to explore them in depth with me. He responded obtusely "up in the spiritual clouds" once or twice. Then nothing at all.

I watched a few of them and to me, they were not great clips. You are such a patient person to put all these efforts into that thread!

[Immanuel Can]

Let's focus on the type of God you believe is true.

Okay.

I agree that not all religions could be possibly right when there is conflict between them.

Great. That's an obvious thing, isn't it?

Actually, AJ took my attention to the scenario that all religions are false.

Not "are." Logically, it would be possible that all contradicting views are false, only so long as they are not the complete spectrum of possible views. If they are, then logically, one HAS to be right.

But how can you choose to open the door to the right spiritual beings? Satan can always intervene by giving a false image, even for example hallucination of Jesus or the Virgin Mary!

That's a very good question, and the right one, I would suggest.

Well, neither you nor I is an expert on the spiritual world, I assume, though it's clear we both understand something of its existence. We also know we are at a severe disadvantage in negotiating that plane. So what I can suggest is only what the Scriptures themself instruct us to do:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God..." (1 John 4:1-3)

So we can follow the guidance God has given us on that; or if we decide not to, we're really at sea and at a very serious disadvantage in anything involving the spiritual world. We really can't know, then, what would be true and what would be deception.

Well, Satan can pretend that He is from God even if I ask for His confession!

That's why the test given above is the only test. It's the only one that cannot possibly be lied about. To deny Christ is to expose oneself as "antichrist," as the passage puts it. Any spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh cannot possibly be from any other source but God. It's the one thing Satan will never do, and cannot lie about.

I read the gospel of Mark and it didn't impress me at all. You know, what if Satan can perform miracles and Jesus was a simple man misguided by Him? What if that was Satan instead of Jesus who performed the miracles?

You read Mark? Then I presume you read chapter 3, in that process. Go and look at verses 20 to 30. And you'll have the perfect answer to that question.

I told you that I accepted Christianity for less than one year. Now I am quite happy with the state of my mind regardless of all the doubts that I have. I am in a permanent state of peace. I don't care what happens to me after I die. I am happy that I was open to all Spirits. They come and go. Satan sometimes tortures me. I am happy to have them all. It is all alright!

Then you will get exactly what you're getting now. At the end of the day, we all get what we decide to live with, in this life. But the afterlife? That is not in my charge or yours. That's when we answer for our decisions, unless we make better ones now.

I am not sure that that verse works. I asked Satan to confess. He laughed at me and said He is the master of all lies.

Did you do the exact test?

He didn't answer, did he? So he ran away from the test. And now you know what he is.

Let's please work with reason since others are subjective.

I'm a big fan of reason. And it will get us a long way. But the last step takes faith, and reason won't quite be enough. It will take you to the gate...it won't walk you through.

"...without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him." (Heb. 11:6)

[Walker]

'm a big fan of reason. And it will get us a long way. But the last step takes faith, and reason won't quite be enough. It will take you to the gate...it won't walk you through.

Does faith make one more receptive to Grace?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Consider the “preaching content” that Immanuel wields, and consider it as something wielded — a tool or a weapon. Really, for someone without *defenses* (be they as they might) you can see how susceptible such a one could be. Especially one who lives in an anxious state — when death and loss surround, when war has come or is imminent. When surety and confidence are at low ebb.

One can discern the function here:

Then you will get exactly what you're getting now. At the end of the day, we all get what we decide to live with, in this life. But the afterlife? That is not in my charge or yours. That's when we answer for our decisions, unless we make better ones now.

The Faith Game is like a gambler’s confidence game. It depends on susceptibility.

The threat appears, it looms, and the Preacher-Con-Artist measures the subtle reactions in the eyes of the one he intends to convert.

But a strong man? One who has resolved to live uprightly? Who is capable, eager even, to take responsibility — to what must that man submit to?

Seen in this way Christianity breeds weaklings and sick-in-soul.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Immanuel Can is a wonderful teacher. Make good use of him.

[Immanuel Can]

'm a big fan of reason. And it will get us a long way. But the last step takes faith, and reason won't quite be enough. It will take you to the gate...it won't walk you through.

Does faith make one more receptive to Grace?

Well, what does Hebrews 11:6 , quoted above, say about that?

[Walker]

'm a big fan of reason. And it will get us a long way. But the last step takes faith, and reason won't quite be enough. It will take you to the gate...it won't walk you through.

Does faith make one more receptive to Grace?

Well, what does Hebrews 11:6 , quoted above, say about that?

The verse doesn't offer any guarantees of Grace being a reward for action or thought, as far as I can tell. This means that unlike karma, Grace is not an effect, but may arrive through the door that faith opens as invitation, or it may not.

I think what's required is all-encompassing, which could be taken as a definition of faith.

Mark 12:30 ... And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.