Atheism

[seeds]

Why is there a God who is so *invisible* and so absent from the world when it is conceivable that, in a truly god-world, that everything would be made totally plain. Why such a tricky and shadowy God who sets things up in such a strange manner?

Time and time again I have answered that question with a question.

And the question is:

If the absolute truth of our ultimate and eternal destiny was "...made totally plain..." and presented to you in the form of, say, an ever-present mystical doorway...



...through-which you (as a newlywed, for example) could literally see the love of your life who just died in a car crash, still alive and summoning you to join her in what appears to be a wondrous new form and setting that makes this earthly setting seem like some kind of "hell" in comparison,...

...would you or would you not voluntarily walk through the door to join her?

Or would you simply stay here and endure the pain and insanity of this lower dimension of reality until you are eventually forced through the doorway anyway, years later?

Or how about these folks...







Do you honestly believe that if they knew of - and had access to - such a doorway, that they could (or should) resist the temptation to walk through it? Especially if what has been "...made totally plain..." is that they (and all humans) are perfectly free to do so and there will be no negative judgment on their souls?

Think of the restriction placed on our ability to know of the absolute truth of our ultimate destiny as having been allegorically mentioned in the Bible in these Genesis verses...

"...And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:...

...So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life..."

And that, in essence, is the Bible's vague and inimitable way of stating why the truth of reality cannot be "...made totally plain..." to us, and is thus protected by that metaphorical flaming sword "...lest we put forth our hands, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

Indeed the "flaming sword" is simply emblematic of how important it is that the truth of our ultimate destiny is kept hidden from us so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.

Anyway, again, AJ, if it were "...made totally plain..." to you that not only would it be safe for you to walk through the doorway, but also, in doing so, your true and eternal form will be revealed to you (and it will be amazing),...

...would you walk through the door?
_______

Are you coming from Theism or Atheism?

From Theism, of course.

But from a more logical form of Theism - one that views the creative locus of the universe (God) as being as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas or flies.

I'm talking about a form of "New Theism"...

(so as not to be outdone by those so-called "New Atheists" - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett and their ilk )

...that looks at the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds - as depicted in one of my illustrations...



...and is capable of saying - "enough already!" - without acquiescing to the ridiculous notion that the unthinkable order of the universe is a product of chance.

Indeed, just as we can look back into the past and see what seems to be distinct eras (plateaus) of humanity's spiritual development (again, as depicted in the illustration),...

...we (at least some of us) can now see that it is time to ascend to a new plateau.

Btw, do you understand the gist and point of the question I posed to AJ in response to his query as to why the truth of reality is not "...made totally plain..." to us?

If yes, then would you walk through the door in my little thought experiment?
_______

[VVilliam]

Are you coming from Theism or Atheism?

From Theism, of course.

But from a more logical form of Theism - one that views the creative locus of the universe (God) as being as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas or flies.

I'm talking about a form of "New Theism"...

It sounds like the "God" of your New Theism is rather the same as the God of Deism.
Natural Theism has it that matter is mindful (mindful matter) re "God/The Creator" and therefore there is no "distance" or "separation" between the creator and the created.

...that looks at the mythological nonsense handed down to us from ancient minds - as depicted in one of my illustrations...



...and is capable of saying - "enough already!" - without acquiescing to the ridiculous notion that the unthinkable order of the universe is a product of chance.

Natural Theism has it that those mythologies are sourced within the Jungian Archetypes. They are useful for that, but not so much for believing in literally - so New and Nature Theism may agree on this...

Indeed, just as we can look back into the past and see what seems to be distinct eras (plateaus) of humanity's spiritual development (again, as depicted in the illustration),...

...we (at least some of us) can now see that it is time to ascend to a new plateau.

Figuratively speaking?

Btw, do you understand the gist and point of the question I posed to AJ in response to his query as to why the truth of reality is not "...made totally plain..." to us?

Natural Theism has it that it is a work in progress re "working it out". It appears to be what New Theism is also saying.

If yes, then would you walk through the door in my little thought experiment?

Yes.
I did read what you wrote (yesterday) and my immediate thoughts were on reports of NDEs OOBEs and how these represent what to expect when ones human instrument dies.
Because the "door" in the thought experiment seems to be the same.

So - if such a door were to appear, I would suppose it is because my body has died....and walking (floating/zooming et al) through it appears to be something we will have no choice but to do.

But if you are being specific to having the choice to do so because the magic door gives opportunity, I am not so sure I would choose to do so there and then.

All in all I think your thought experiment is a mythology in that is good for example, but not overly practical for circumstance.

If it is about being prepared for entering through to the next exciting level, it is a suitable enough analogy and (as a Natural Theist) I am not afraid of moving into such changes.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes. The second step is getting out of the bed one made for oneself re choosing Theism rather than Atheism.

I'm not sure I understand that comment. It seems to me that the second question is the one I was saying, namely, "What sort of God?" I can't see what "question" you're even indicating.

Maybe you'll explain.

Yes - that would be getting out of the bed one makes in the choosing.

Sorry...I still don't see a question there, so I'm afraid I can't follow you. Can you be clearer?

Then there is the great invisible wall to ascend.

The "wall of" ? What?

The wall of theist beliefs about the nature of the creator.

I confess, I don't understand this comment either. But maybe you'll clarify.

[Veritas Aequitas]

_______

I like your above illustration.
Can I have your permission to use it?

I am interested in the human psychology that underlies all the above.

[VVilliam]

I'm not sure I understand that comment. It seems to me that the second question is the one I was saying, namely, "What sort of God?" I can't see what "question" you're even indicating.

Maybe you'll explain.

Yes - that would be getting out of the bed one makes in the choosing.

Sorry...I still don't see a question there, so I'm afraid I can't follow you. Can you be clearer?

Then there is the great invisible wall to ascend.

The "wall of" ? What?

The wall of theist beliefs about the nature of the creator.

I confess, I don't understand this comment either. But maybe you'll clarify.

I am speaking in metaphor. The beds we chose have to do with "type of theist" and the wall represents the what theism and atheism have built re theist beliefs about the nature of the creator.

I mention these in more detail in prior posts.

[seeds]

_______

I like your above illustration.
Can I have your permission to use it?

I am interested in the human psychology that underlies all the above.

Sure, V, you can use it.

In what way are you thinking of using it?

I once discovered (on the Internet) one of my illustrations being used as an album cover.

Anyway, if you do use it, I'd appreciate it if you credit it to me.

Either - Keith David Gill or kdgill.
______

[Veritas Aequitas]

_______

I like your above illustration.
Can I have your permission to use it?

I am interested in the human psychology that underlies all the above.

Sure, V, you can use it.

In what way are you thinking of using it?

I once discovered (on the Internet) one of my illustrations being used as an album cover.

Anyway, if you do use it, I'd appreciate it if you credit it to me.

Either - Keith David Gill or kdgill.
______

OK.

I am interested in the human psychology and neurosciences [what is going on in the human brain ] that underlies all the above.

[Immanuel Can]

I mention these in more detail in prior posts.

I must have missed all those. The metaphor isn't terribly obvious to me.

If you want to explain, okay. If not, we can just go on, I guess.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And that, in essence, is the Bible's vague and inimitable way of stating why the truth of reality cannot be "...made totally plain..." to us, and is thus protected by that metaphorical flaming sword "...lest we put forth our hands, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

Indeed the "flaming sword" is simply emblematic of how important it is that the truth of our ultimate destiny is kept hidden from us so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.

Anyway, again, AJ, if it were "...made totally plain..." to you that not only would it be safe for you to walk through the doorway, but also, in doing so, your true and eternal form will be revealed to you (and it will be amazing),...

...would you walk through the door?

If you propose such a *door* I would have to understand that you have *walked through it*. Otherwise what would you be talking about? A speculation? A wish?

The *question* you ask is really a statement you are making.

And, naturally, if actually presented with the case that you do present, obviously I would walk through the door. But what you are trying to point out, it seems, is that therefore people remain in this realm of woe do so through choice. Thus: there is a *key* that will open the lock.

These are tantalizing ideas .... (and their function is tantalization).

I understand the use of abstract pictures (your diagrams) for didactic purposes. And perhaps what you are trying to refer to is some variation on the notion that if we have incarnated here that we can, if we really and truly desire to, dis-incarnate out of this plane and onto some other plane where our children will not starve (for no good reason) or we won't be rounded up and put into prison camps.

That is one of the fundamentals of yoga philosophy. And, in a more crude way, it is also (I think) the essential picture offered by Christianity. It is a derivative of the idea that you are here because of some fault. In Vedanta they might say that the Eternal One fragments into individual souls in a grand game through which each soul realizes itself and then *returns*. Or as I say: that the science of yoga is a science of learning how to dis-incarnate from this realm of woe. Just as you got yourself into this fix, so you can work (or *realize*) your way out of it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

William: Then there is the great invisible wall to ascend.

The "wall of" ? What?

Every religion is based on a Picture of what this world is, why we are here, how we got here, and what we must do or not do here.

Each religion that I am aware of is aware of human suffering and makes propositions as to how these can and should be dealt with. Judaism is based on the idea that God (somehow) did not *finish* the creation and the world is imperfect and rough. We are given the task of making things right. Judaism is not very otherworldly, though in European history, it was influenced by otherworldly worldviews. But Judaism does present a *wall* of things to be done and not done: the mitzvoth.

Christianity has a wall too, but it has different elements. It is based on a desire to escape from this domain and to achieve deathlessness in a heaven-realm. It has many of the ethical injunctions of Judaism but rejects the illogic of a great deal of Judaism's oppressive *laws*. So it defines ethical principles as being necessary to observe and abide by.

My experience with the Oriental religions (of India for example) is that they paint a more complex -- a larger and wider -- picture of what this world is, how we got here, and what we must do and not do.

So I believe that I understood William's use of the term *wall* and *invisible wall* as an entire set of notions, ideas, injunctions, taboos, even perhaps paranoias and obsessions, that tend to occupy the attention of theists.

The wall is invisible because it is metaphysical.

[Immanuel Can]

William: Then there is the great invisible wall to ascend.

The "wall of" ? What?

Every religion...

I wasn't asking you. I don't find your "answers" interesting or relevant. You certainly can't answer for somebody else.

[promethean75]

TEAR DOWN THE WALL!

[Alexis Jacobi]

The "wall of"? What?

Every religion...

I wasn't asking you. I don't find your "answers" interesting or relevant. You certainly can't answer for somebody else.

The entire point here, Cricket, is to do just that: answer. It doesn’t matter who asked or who answers.

I certainly recognize that no part of what I think ‘interests you’. You can only see all I see think and say as being not merely wrong but unutterably misguided and misguiding. You hold and know the sole truth. The really and truly true. Angels pay heed to your pronouncements!

But all of this — getting to the core of what each really thinks and believes — is really the only thing we can do here.

[Immanuel Can]

Every religion...

I wasn't asking you. I don't find your "answers" interesting or relevant. You certainly can't answer for somebody else.

It doesn’t matter who asked or who answers.

All I ask is that it be somebody who's reasonable to talk to, and just might plausibly have something a little relevant to say.

In your case, that's apparently too much to hope for.

[promethean75]

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