The USA and Israel

[bahman]

And yet, it really is MY home. And if they claim it, it's not theirs. I may agree to share some of it with them, but it's not theirs to claim.

Based on what?

Based on the fact that I own the title for it.

Their land was confiscated by Jews.

You can't say that Jews lived on the Land for 4,000 years, and also that they "confiscated" it. In point of historical fact, the whole idea of a "Palestinian" is relatively new -- the beginning of the 20th Century, really; although the Jews are more generous in their telling of the history, and freely acknowledge that precedents to the idea might exist as early as the 12th Century, among Aegean raiders coming to the coast. So by even the most generous accounts, the Palestinians are not the original residents, but newcomers.

As for the present history, the Palestinians were actually driven out by the Arabs in 1948, in their big push to eliminate Israel. The Palestinians, like other Arab Israelis who stayed, could have stood by Israel; but they fled, abandoning their homes...though many clearly hoped that they would shortly return, as soon as the other Arab neighbours had massacred all the Jews.

That didn't work out. By abandoning Israel, they abandoned their own homes, and have not gotten them back since. Do they deserve them back? Maybe. But if they do, it's got to be on a combined or two-state basis, not on the promise of eliminating the Jews.

Of course, I am not talking about eliminating Jews. I am talking about the land confiscated by Jews after the war.

[Immanuel Can]

Based on what?

Based on the fact that I own the title for it.

Their land was confiscated by Jews.

You can't say that Jews lived on the Land for 4,000 years, and also that they "confiscated" it. In point of historical fact, the whole idea of a "Palestinian" is relatively new -- the beginning of the 20th Century, really; although the Jews are more generous in their telling of the history, and freely acknowledge that precedents to the idea might exist as early as the 12th Century, among Aegean raiders coming to the coast. So by even the most generous accounts, the Palestinians are not the original residents, but newcomers.

As for the present history, the Palestinians were actually driven out by the Arabs in 1948, in their big push to eliminate Israel. The Palestinians, like other Arab Israelis who stayed, could have stood by Israel; but they fled, abandoning their homes...though many clearly hoped that they would shortly return, as soon as the other Arab neighbours had massacred all the Jews.

That didn't work out. By abandoning Israel, they abandoned their own homes, and have not gotten them back since. Do they deserve them back? Maybe. But if they do, it's got to be on a combined or two-state basis, not on the promise of eliminating the Jews.

Of course, I am not talking about eliminating Jews. I am talking about the land confiscated by Jews after the war.

It wasn't "confiscated." It was "abandoned." And while you can understand the choice some Palestinians made, it's not so easy to excuse the Arabs who were the real cause of them abandoning their homes.

[promethean75]

U are talking to a fellow who believes a god gave that land to the jews, bahman.

What part about 'you've reached an impasse in this discussion' do u not understand?

It's time to ... bahman. It's over. I'm sorry.

[bahman]

Based on the fact that I own the title for it.


You can't say that Jews lived on the Land for 4,000 years, and also that they "confiscated" it. In point of historical fact, the whole idea of a "Palestinian" is relatively new -- the beginning of the 20th Century, really; although the Jews are more generous in their telling of the history, and freely acknowledge that precedents to the idea might exist as early as the 12th Century, among Aegean raiders coming to the coast. So by even the most generous accounts, the Palestinians are not the original residents, but newcomers.

As for the present history, the Palestinians were actually driven out by the Arabs in 1948, in their big push to eliminate Israel. The Palestinians, like other Arab Israelis who stayed, could have stood by Israel; but they fled, abandoning their homes...though many clearly hoped that they would shortly return, as soon as the other Arab neighbours had massacred all the Jews.

That didn't work out. By abandoning Israel, they abandoned their own homes, and have not gotten them back since. Do they deserve them back? Maybe. But if they do, it's got to be on a combined or two-state basis, not on the promise of eliminating the Jews.

Of course, I am not talking about eliminating Jews. I am talking about the land confiscated by Jews after the war.

It wasn't "confiscated." It was "abandoned." And while you can understand the choice some Palestinians made, it's not so easy to excuse the Arabs who were the real cause of them abandoning their homes.

So you expected that Palestinians remain in the war zone and lose their lives.

[Immanuel Can]

Of course, I am not talking about eliminating Jews. I am talking about the land confiscated by Jews after the war.

It wasn't "confiscated." It was "abandoned." And while you can understand the choice some Palestinians made, it's not so easy to excuse the Arabs who were the real cause of them abandoning their homes.

So you expected that Palestinians remain in the war zone and lose their lives.

No. I expect them to surrender and accept a two-state solution. What were you thinking, if not that?

[bahman]

U are talking to a fellow who believes a god gave that land to the jews, bahman.

What part about 'you've reached an impasse in this discussion' do u not understand?

It's time to ... bahman. It's over. I'm sorry.

I think I pushed him far enough but he does not want to accept the facts. Maybe you are right and there is no point discussing with him anymore. I just push him a little more. Please!

[bahman]

It wasn't "confiscated." It was "abandoned." And while you can understand the choice some Palestinians made, it's not so easy to excuse the Arabs who were the real cause of them abandoning their homes.

So you expected that Palestinians remain in the war zone and lose their lives.

No. I expect them to surrender and accept a two-state solution. What were you thinking, if not that?

They want their land back. The land before the war took place.

[phyllo]

In 1948, more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war,[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11] Dozens of massacres were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[12][13] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[14] These activities were not necessarily limited to the year 1948.[15]

The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[19]: 239–240  which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[20] the typhus epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[21] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[22][23] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[24][25]

Later, a series of land and property laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[26][27] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[28][13][29] while others dispute this charge.[30][31][32] Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charge that Israel practices apartheid.[33][34]

The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will allow them the right to return to their homes, or compensate them, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict.[citation needed] The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere on 15 May, a date known as Nakba Day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Pale ... and_flight

[bahman]

In 1948, more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war,[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11] Dozens of massacres were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[12][13] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[14] These activities were not necessarily limited to the year 1948.[15]

The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[19]: 239–240  which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[20] the typhus epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[21] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[22][23] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[24][25]

Later, a series of land and property laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[26][27] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[28][13][29] while others dispute this charge.[30][31][32] Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charge that Israel practices apartheid.[33][34]

The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will allow them the right to return to their homes, or compensate them, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict.[citation needed] The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere on 15 May, a date known as Nakba Day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Pale ... and_flight

He does not think that Wikipedia is a valid source despite all the references within it.

[phyllo]

He does not think that Wikipedia is a valid source despite all the references within it.

He thinks the Bible is a valid source, but Wikipedia isn't.

[Immanuel Can]

So you expected that Palestinians remain in the war zone and lose their lives.

No. I expect them to surrender and accept a two-state solution. What were you thinking, if not that?

They want their land back. The land before the war took place.

Then maybe they shouldn't have left their Jewish neighbours to be slaughtered by the other Arabs. That would have been a better idea.

[bahman]

No. I expect them to surrender and accept a two-state solution. What were you thinking, if not that?

They want their land back. The land before the war took place.

Then maybe they shouldn't have left their Jewish neighbours to be slaughtered by the other Arabs. That would have been a better idea.

So you agree that Jews unjustly grabbed the land they don't own?

[Immanuel Can]

They want their land back. The land before the war took place.

Then maybe they shouldn't have left their Jewish neighbours to be slaughtered by the other Arabs. That would have been a better idea.

So you agree that Jews unjustly grabbed the land they don't own?

It's their land. 4,000 years give them pretty good "squatters rights": and certainly far, far better than anything the Palestinians can claim. The Palestinians can only argue, at the outside, that they had any relationship with the Land for around 800 years...but more likely, about 100.

[Immanuel Can]

He does not think that Wikipedia is a valid source despite all the references within it.

He thinks the Bible is a valid source, but Wikipedia isn't.

Do you know what a "wiki" is? Better look it up.

[phyllo]

Edward Said on whether Jews have a claim to Palestine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MbXY3X-xGU