The USA and Israel

[Immanuel Can]

How many Israelis were killed by rockets?

About 33 dead, and 2,000 injured, apparently. It's hard to be sure, because of the success of the Iron Dome defenses.

The general trend was in favor of Israel.

Not among Palestinians. And not in all Arab nations. But among those signing onto the Abraham Accords, which Hamas is keen to destroy, yes, there has been some improvement...until now.

You cannot destroy terrorism by violence since any person who lost a family member becomes a terrorist.

You actually can. And that's the awful thing. You can destroy terrorism by destroying everything, by destroying all of Gaza itself and removing every occupant. And unless you provide some possible safe stopping-point for Israel, the fear is that that is exactly what Hamas will continue to drive them do. After all, Hamas has already demonstrated it cares absolutely nothing for the lives of its own people, and in fact, craves their deaths as martyrs.

Ok, so you are giving the right to Israel to destroy another nation?

Of course not.

You said it was impossible: "you cannot," you said. And I pointed out that it is quite possible. I didn't suggest it should be done, at all. In fact, I point it out to you to point out that unless Hamas is gone and Israel is given some "out" of the present conflict, it's quite possible that things will end up getting much, much worse -- a thing which neither you nor I would want.

If you care about Palestinians, that's a thing that should really concern you. They are very clearly in the clutches of a sadistic and homicidal regime that wants them all dead, dead for the good of its cause, the cause of Hamas.

[bahman]

How many Israelis were killed by rockets?

About 33 dead, and 2,000 injured, apparently. It's hard to be sure, because of the success of the Iron Dome defenses.

The general trend was in favor of Israel.

Not among Palestinians. And not in all Arab nations. But among those signing onto the Abraham Accords, which Hamas is keen to destroy, yes, there has been some improvement...until now.

You actually can. And that's the awful thing. You can destroy terrorism by destroying everything, by destroying all of Gaza itself and removing every occupant. And unless you provide some possible safe stopping-point for Israel, the fear is that that is exactly what Hamas will continue to drive them do. After all, Hamas has already demonstrated it cares absolutely nothing for the lives of its own people, and in fact, craves their deaths as martyrs.

Ok, so you are giving the right to Israel to destroy another nation?

Of course not.

You said it was impossible: "you cannot," you said. And I pointed out that it is quite possible. I didn't suggest it should be done, at all. In fact, I point it out to you to point out that unless Hamas is gone and Israel is given some "out" of the present conflict, it's quite possible that things will end up getting much, much worse -- a thing which neither you nor I would want.

If you care about Palestinians, that's a thing that should really concern you. They are very clearly in the clutches of a sadistic and homicidal regime that wants them all dead, dead for the good of its cause, the cause of Hamas.

I know what is your solution but that is not going to work either. Israel is very keen to destroy Hamas at any price. Unfortunately, the Western countries support Israel. So we have to witness the destruction of another nation and who knows maybe more than 100,000 deaths and who can guess about the number of injuries?

[Immanuel Can]

Israel is very keen to destroy Hamas at any price.

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

Unfortunately, the Western countries support Israel.

Whom should they support? Hamas? Hamas is THE reason the Gazans are getting blown up right now.

[phyllo]

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

So, you would be allowed to kill whoever lived near that person, even if they had nothing to do with the original assault?

An interesting interpretation of justice.

[bahman]

Israel is very keen to destroy Hamas at any price.

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

I end up occupying land that I don't own. Releasing Palestinian prisoners... That is the winning card.

Unfortunately, the Western countries support Israel.

Whom should they support? Hamas? Hamas is THE reason the Gazans are getting blown up right now.

They shouldn't support mass murder that is done by Israel as well.

[Immanuel Can]

Israel is very keen to destroy Hamas at any price.

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

Releasing Palestinian prisoners... That is the winning card.

It's been done...many more than the hostages released. And still Hamas has hostages. So no, that's not a "winning card." It's trading hordes of terrorists for helpless civilians, and it only encourages hostage-taking.

Unfortunately, the Western countries support Israel.

Whom should they support? Hamas? Hamas is THE reason the Gazans are getting blown up right now.

They shouldn't support mass murder that is done by Israel as well.

There is nothing so clearly "mass murder" as what Hamas did. Now, it's war. It's a war caused and sustained by Hamas. And yes, people die in war. All the more important, then, that Hamas should stop the war it started.

[Immanuel Can]

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

So, you would be allowed to kill whoever lived near that person, even if they had nothing to do with the original assault?

Of course not. But if you took as shot at the homicidal maniac threatening your family, and he threw a civilian in the way, and that civilian died, then whose fault is that? Not yours.

[bahman]

Of course! What would you do, if somebody invaded your house and wantonly slaughtered and raped your wife and kids, and kidnapped one or two of them to torture and to hold as hostages, and then promised to come back and kill you, too?

Would you buy them a present?

Releasing Palestinian prisoners... That is the winning card.

It's been done...many more than the hostages released. And still Hamas has hostages. So no, that's not a "winning card." It's trading hordes of terrorists for helpless civilians, and it only encourages hostage-taking.

Whom should they support? Hamas? Hamas is THE reason the Gazans are getting blown up right now.

They shouldn't support mass murder that is done by Israel as well.

There is nothing so clearly "mass murder" as what Hamas did. Now, it's war. It's a war caused and sustained by Hamas. And yes, people die in war. All the more important, then, that Hamas should stop the war it started.

Israel occupied the land of Palestinians unjustly. Stop occupation so Hamas has nothing to blame.

[henry quirk]

one side started the thing. One side bombed more. One side won't stop shooting rockets. One side has more tanks. One side butchered and raped civilians. One side issues civilian warnings before blowing things to smithereens. One side is actually genocidal. One kidnaps. One side has historically more territory. One side is a democracy. One side is a one-party dictatorship. One side puts its own people in harm's way, and robs its own citizens, and uses them as human shields...and so on.

All I see are two heads of the same Hydra, snappin' away at one another.

If I side with anyone it's with all those not among The Powers That Be who are at those Powers' mercy.

[henry quirk]

Being horrified doesn't help the people who are going to die today, tomorrow, the next day ...

No, it doesn't.

Pressure needs to be applied to those in a position of power. That means speaking out, particularly in the US, because America has a lot of clout.

And how that workin' out for ya? Speaking out, I mean...and voting harder. Is all that public demonstration and democracy nettin' you what you want?

[Immanuel Can]

Israel occupied the land of Palestinians unjustly. Stop occupation so Hamas has nothing to blame.

Ah. So the Palestinians get carte blanche to murder, rape, kidnap, and shoot rockets because you don't want to acknowledge Israel returning to its own land?

I see.

[iambiguous]

one side started the thing. One side bombed more. One side won't stop shooting rockets. One side has more tanks. One side butchered and raped civilians. One side issues civilian warnings before blowing things to smithereens. One side is actually genocidal. One kidnaps. One side has historically more territory. One side is a democracy. One side is a one-party dictatorship. One side puts its own people in harm's way, and robs its own citizens, and uses them as human shields...and so on.

All I see are two heads of the same Hydra, snappin' away at one another.

If I side with anyone it's with all those not among The Powers That Be who are at those Powers' mercy.

This however is when he needs to remind IC that both sides are butchering each other in the name of the same God. Indeed, it's the very same God that IC worships and adores. The God of Abraham. Just different prophet/messiah narratives.

Now, as a Deist he might not have a dog in this fight. But there's still an interest on my part in grasping how he connects the dots between this Deist God of his and all of these...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

...ghastly things.

Also, the Christians, Muslims and Jews all have a Scripture they can fall back on in order to "prove" the existence of their own God...the God of Abraham. With henry, it's just the assumption that God provided mere mortals with the inherent capacity to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature". Before He skipped town. Meaning [for henry] that you must accept his own value judgments as the embodiment of that. Meaning that if you don't embrace his own moral and political prejudices you are...wrong.

Period.

[phyllo]

Israel occupied the land of Palestinians unjustly. Stop occupation so Hamas has nothing to blame.

Ah. So the Palestinians get carte blanche to murder, rape, kidnap, and shoot rockets because you don't want to acknowledge Israel returning to its own land?

I see.

Oh, Israel owns all that land.

That's different. Those bastard Palestinian squatters better pack their bags and piss off.

[phyllo]

Being horrified doesn't help the people who are going to die today, tomorrow, the next day ...

No, it doesn't.

Pressure needs to be applied to those in a position of power. That means speaking out, particularly in the US, because America has a lot of clout.

And how that workin' out for ya? Speaking out, I mean...and voting harder. Is all that public demonstration and democracy nettin' you what you want?

My efforts are in my control. The result is not.

[Immanuel Can]

Israel occupied the land of Palestinians unjustly. Stop occupation so Hamas has nothing to blame.

Ah. So the Palestinians get carte blanche to murder, rape, kidnap, and shoot rockets because you don't want to acknowledge Israel returning to its own land?

I see.

Oh, Israel owns all that land.

That's different. Those bastard Palestinian squatters better pack their bags and piss off.

Nobody's said that. A two-state solution is fairest, and it's been offered multiple times...and every time, rejected, unfortunately, by one side.

What that's going to end up meaning, it would seem is simple: the non-compromisers, the all-or-nothings are going to get one of the two -- and if that happens, it will be nobody's fault but their own.