Is morality objective or subjective?

[Harbal]

Yeah I'm not talkin about Descartes' deus deceptor, either. He's sayin he has proof that he exists if he's being deceived. Yeah that's obvious, Frenchy. Didn't need an entire meditations to work that one out.

What I'm saying is more ominous, and my doubt is much more radical than his. I'm sayin if 'god' existed, this god could never prove to me that it's THE god, the main one at the top of the corporate ladder. But the supreme irony is, I'm employing such doubt due to the faculties of reason that this god has supposedly instilled in me, himself.

God: don't believe anything a being that claims to be god, says, Prom.

Whadaya think about that, Rene?

Even if you think God might exist, you can't know for sure, so best not think about it at all. I mean, what good will it do you, at the end of the day?

[promethean75]

What if I wanna do bad stuff but I don't wanna go to hell either? U know how nerve racking this is for me?

I'd say it's pretty goddamn important whether or not this god exists becuz I got a lot ridin on it, Harb.

[promethean75]

See here's what I'm afraid of. Nothing makes any sense right now, but what if when i get to heaven, G explains everything and then I'm like 'woah... now i see why u did it like that'. Ya know what i mean? There may be some reason why he had to be such an asshole which I'm not aware of yet.

So then what if i do bad stuff, go to hell, and then he explains everything and I'm like 'fuuuuuuuuck!' becuz i blew it. I'd never forgive myself, Harb.

[Harbal]

What if I wanna do bad stuff but I don't wanna go to hell either? U know how nerve racking this is for me?

I'd say it's pretty goddamn important whether or not this god exists becuz I got a lot ridin on it, Harb.

Well couldn't you look for a religion that doesn't prohibit the things you want to do? And let's be honest, tying your shoelaces the wrong way would be an act of evil in some Bible fanatic's eyes. What about Satanism? they say it's not as bad as it sounds.

[Harbal]

See here's what I'm afraid of. Nothing makes any sense right now, but what if when i get to heaven, G explains everything and then I'm like 'woah... now i see why u did it like that'. Ya know what i mean? There may be some reason why he had to be such an asshole which I'm not aware of yet.

So then what if i do bad stuff, go to hell, and then he explains everything and I'm like 'fuuuuuuuuck!' becuz i blew it. I'd never forgive myself, Harb.

Couldn't you also come up with a reason for doing the things that you did? I mean, if he pulls that stunt on you.......

[promethean75]

The problem with Satanism is that it's derived from and dependent on christianity... and christian doctrine clearly states the S is gonna lose, and I don't wanna be on the losin team, man.

This is all fucked up, Harb. I need a religion that let's me do bad stuff without getting my karma all fucked up or landing my ass on a rotisserie when i die.

Hinduism? No that's one of the karma ones. I'll end up being born again as an outcast and have to wash my socks in the river.

A pagan? I dunno i hear Zeus is as big of an asshole as the christian god is.

Buddhism's out becuz i don't want nirvana, i want to live goddammit. I don't wanna complete the wheel of samsara and enter the nothingness. I mean shit i get that already as an atheist, right? Why would i shave my head and sit under a tree all day just to achieve nothingness?

I can't be a muslim or a jew for the same reasons why i can't be a christian. It's the same god, the same asshole, bro.

Like i said. I'm fucked.

[Harbal]

The problem with Satanism is that it's derived from and dependent on christianity... and christian doctrine clearly states the S is gonna lose, and I don't wanna be on the losin team, man.

This is all fucked up, Harb. I need a religion that let's me do bad stuff without getting my karma all fucked up or landing my ass on a rotisserie when i die.

Hinduism? No that's one of the karma ones. I'll end up being born again as an outcast and have to wash my socks in the river.

A pagan? I dunno i hear Zeus is as big of an asshole as the christian god is.

Buddhism's out becuz i don't want nirvana, i want to live goddammit. I don't wanna complete the wheel of samsara and enter the nothingness. I mean shit i get that already as an atheist, right? Why would i shave my head and sit under a tree all day just to achieve nothingness?

I can't be a muslim or a jew for the same reasons why i can't be a christian. It's the same god, the same asshole, bro.

Like i said. I'm fucked.

What about Sun worship? Sure, you would have to behave yourself during the day, but you could pull out all the stops after dark. And as a bonus, you would get a nice tan out of it, which no amount of hymn singing would give you.

[promethean75]

"What about Sun worship? Sure, you would have to behave yourself during the day, but you could pull out all the stops after dark."

Naw he'd still see me. Or he'd find out, somehow, I'm sure. The snitchin ass moon would probably tell em.

[Harbal]

"What about Sun worship? Sure, you would have to behave yourself during the day, but you could pull out all the stops after dark."

Naw he'd still see me. Or he'd find out, somehow, I'm sure. The snitchin ass moon would probably tell em.

Well, say what you like about atheism, but it's a Hell of a lot less bother than religion.

[Dubious]

See here's what I'm afraid of. Nothing makes any sense right now, but what if when i get to heaven, G explains everything and then I'm like 'woah... now i see why u did it like that'. Ya know what i mean? There may be some reason why he had to be such an asshole which I'm not aware of yet.

It would be the excuse WE invented because we needed an excuse for sadism: God had to be cruel in order to be kind!

[Immanuel Can]

As I said it is not about whether I like your argument or not.

Well, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.

If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.

So again, what will you accept?

Offer him a miracle.

Too late. There's been various of those, and people just ignore them, it seems. Even if a man rises from the dead, that's apparently not good enough for some folks.

[Harbal]

Well, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.

If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.

So again, what will you accept?

Offer him a miracle.

Too late. There's been various of those, and people just ignore them, it seems. Even if a man rises from the dead, that's apparently not good enough for some folks.

Just produce convincing evidence that it actually happened, then.

[Immanuel Can]

Offer him a miracle.

Too late. There's been various of those, and people just ignore them, it seems. Even if a man rises from the dead, that's apparently not good enough for some folks.

Just produce convincing evidence that it actually happened, then.

There's been lots. The risen Jesus was apparently seen by over 500 witnesses, and then men and women gave up their lives -- often in the most unpleasant ways -- for the truth of what they had seen. That's abundant testimony, and too the death, even. But the fact that they're all dead now seems enough to grant modern skeptics the latitude to disregard the entire incident...on no contrary evidence at all.

So miracles don't "work," if by "work" we mean "permanently prevent all the skeptics from scoffing." But that's hardly surprising.

[Harbal]

Too late. There's been various of those, and people just ignore them, it seems. Even if a man rises from the dead, that's apparently not good enough for some folks.

Just produce convincing evidence that it actually happened, then.

There's been lots. The risen Jesus was apparently seen by over 500 witnesses, and then men and women gave up their lives -- often in the most unpleasant ways -- for the truth of what they had seen. That's abundant testimony, and too the death, even. But the fact that they're all dead now seems enough to grant modern skeptics the latitude to disregard the entire incident...on no contrary evidence at all.

So miracles don't "work," if by "work" we mean "permanently prevent all the skeptics from scoffing." But that's hardly surprising.

I think you would have to really want to believe it in order to see that as any kind of evidence.

[Dontaskme]

Well, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.

If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.

So again, what will you accept?

Offer him a miracle.

Too late. There's been various of those, and people just ignore them, it seems. Even if a man rises from the dead, that's apparently not good enough for some folks.

Back in the day, as the story goes, Jesus was hung on a cross while he was still alive, and was left there to suffer a slow painful death. It was a time and event that you IC did not witness personally. So for all you know, some nearby women may have been lamenting over the innocence of this weeping man prompting them to show some compassion, and somehow managed to rescue him by removing him from the cross, then taking him to a safe cave for a while where they offered their medical assistance until he had fully recovered from his frightening ordeal. And then knowing all too well that they had to keep his rescue a secret from his captors and torturers, so they had to go into hiding for the rest of their lives. Some time later Jesus was able to leave the safety of the cave, and subsequently was seen walking around as though nothing had ever happened to him. But for those who believed he had died on the cross, they would no doubt have believed he had risen from the dead. Who knows what really happened? but people just wanted to believe all sorts of stuff about this historical character, back in the days when the story was being written.

Anyway, my point is, people once they are clinically dead, do not rise from the dead, and be alive again, they just don't. That is just an objective unchangeable observational fact. It's not a divine miracle acted out by some invisible Father God on his Son.




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