Swimming in murky water

[Typist]

This is not any sort of claim at expertise, the universe probably thinks my thoughts aren't worth having so shut them off.

You lucky dog! Sadly, the universe seems to find me fascinating.

The observer and the observed are inseparable.

Are you familiar with Jiddu Krishnamurti? He's written extensively regarding the observer and observed.

I am looking at a coffee cup. There is the experience of "me", the observer. And the image of the cup, the observed.

The "me" is a thought. If thought is turned off, the "me" vanishes, leaving only the coffee cup. The observer and the observed become one.

This is a bit of a fancy way of discussing something simple that happens naturally all the time. If 4 naked women were to suddenly appear in my office, for a moment the "me" would be gone while the brain takes in this unexpected new data.

Meditation is just the process of gaining some conscious control over this naturally occurring function of the brain.

It's probably best not to try it while naked women are in your office though, as this is an exercise reserved for true experts.

Most people assume that meditation is all about blissing out and groovy visuals. This has not been my experience. The technique is simplicity itself but has been the hardest thing I have attempted in my life.

Thought has a momentum, like a train running down the track. Most modern people live in a high stimulation environment, and their train of thought can be large and running fast.

If we try to slam on the data brakes too fast, the mind will often complain. Sometimes this is expressed only as boredom, but sometimes the mind will throw up a bunch of personal melodrama, in an attempt to restart the data flow. If we just wait patiently, this usually goes away, but our inability to wait patiently is often what brought us to meditation in the first place so....

On one twenty day course I attended, whenever I sat down, and closed my eyes, my body was instantly thrown to the floor where I thrashed around like an epileptic for 2 or 3 hours. This went on for nine days before it stopped.

Careful now...

As bizarre as it may sound I feel myself getting constantly lighter and hollow.

Makes sense to me. The heaviness is not thought so much, as our attachment to it. If that attachment is loosened, a feeling of lightness makes sense.

I have no idea of where it's all leading, but the experiences have convinced me (deluded if you wish) that there is no difference between me and the universe. What drives it drives me, so the concept of death holds no sense of apprehension.

It might be leading to a place where you'll no longer feel a need to have theories about you and the universe, and will be content to simply be. Not that I would know mind you, just a theory.

[chaz wyman]

Thanks for your patience but you wont get me to go along with this. There is no sense in which we can assume that the senses work on a mirco-level as you describe.
I think I have experienced the most basic level of experience possible. THis was achieved in a state of sensory depravation and on drugs of various kinds on other occasions. Years later whilst studying Palaeolithic and Southern African rock art, some of the images (mainly geometric) that my brain conjured up for me were to be seen in both examples of rock art separated by thousands of years and in two separate continents. Sure enough there is a body of theory that relates such geometric images as the most fundamental tabula rasa upon which our minds are apt to lay their interpretations from the visual senses.
You might have heard of Entoptic Images?
http://psychedelic-information-theory.c ... -Phenomena
This might help you understand your mediations a little better.
Entoptics are the skeleton of the nervous system upon which we place the flesh of our understanding of the world.
You might like to look into this.

Its been two years since the end of treatment, that means I stand a good chance to last a bit longer.
It has been a painful experience, and getting a simple cold can now be something of a major event, but life goes on.

I really don't know what it is exactly that you think you experienced but whatever it was it was not sub-atiomic particles.
Humans are not capable of experiencing atoms let alone smaller things. In a very really sense atoms don't exist except as models with which we try to understand the world we live in. But in whatever way they might exist they lie beyond what our senses are capable of as all receptors are made of macro-atomic stuctures. Sight relies on light which cannot "see" atoms, hearing relies on the vibration of atoms and cannot hear atoms, touch relies on the field of pressure that is exerted when atoms try to occupy the same space, and cannot feel atoms, taste relies on the encounter of chemical atoms in contact with taste buds.
None of this allows for subatomic particles.

I'm glad to hear the prognosis for your treatment is positive. It must have been an horrendous experience to go through and you have my heartfelt sympathy.
I hope you can totally avoid some of the 'flu strains that are going around nowadays. I had one that wouldn't go away for months this winter.

I will attempt to explain what has been my experience and you can make of it what you will.
The difficulty arises in describing it in words that make sense. As an artist it is equivalent to trying to reproduce a water colour with a kids crayon.
As you say atoms pre se are really only a model, it would appear that they are in some way a combination of sub atomic particles, and I agree with your description of how the senses operate at the macro level.
But the macro receives its information from the micro level and my experience is that this is in the form of wavelets. They are so subtle and last so briefly that experiencing them seems only possible because there are so many of them. When you can feel the root of every hair on your body and they are simply wavelets in a constant state of arising and passing away it is somewhat odd.
I know you discount the possibility of detached observation, but the mind is capable of very powerful states of concentration (or delusion if you prefer). Personally I have been able, at times, to maintain a single pointed observation without any thought processes for periods
of up to ninety minutes. This is not any sort of claim at expertise, the universe probably thinks my thoughts aren't worth having so shut them off. At this stage there is another total contradiction in terms. The observer and the observed are inseparable. This leads to the Jhana state "I read about in a magazine" and the whole concept of a self is thrown out the window.
The sensations of which you become aware of prior to these circumstances could easily, and perhaps correctly, be argued as imagination from sensory deprivation. Whatever the cause they range from horrendous solid pain to subtle wavelets. By remaining detached and observing the solid pain this in turn eventually dissolves in to wavelets and disappears.

Most people assume that meditation is all about blissing out and groovy visuals. This has not been my experience. The technique is simplicity itself but has been the hardest thing I have attempted in my life. During the process I get confronted with every psychological hangup I've ever had. In the early years of my practice the sensations were all horrendous and sometimes made me think I was losing my sanity (maybe I did). On one twenty day course I attended, whenever I sat down, and closed my eyes, my body was instantly thrown to the floor where I thrashed around like an epileptic for 2 or 3 hours. This went on for nine days before it stopped. And yes it ended in a cloud of subtle wavelets.

So why do I bother? It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't done it. My best attempt would be to say it's like having a troublesome tooth removed. The process is unpleasant but the result of the relief is lasting. Gradually over the years I've lost an enormous amount of my hangups etc. As bizarre as it may sound I feel myself getting constantly lighter and hollow.

Several years ago when I got somewhat freaked out by what was happening I nearly quit. Instead I decided that as life was just an experiment I'd stick with this proceedure and see where it lead. I'm glad I did. Each year it just gets better. I have no idea of where it's all leading, but the experiences have convinced me (deluded if you wish) that there is no difference between me and the universe. What drives it drives me, so the concept of death holds no sense of apprehension.

Sorry about the long rave, you may be right and what I've described is all delusion and nothing to do with sub atomic particles. But what I have experienced makes me think that the physicists will discover that electromagnetics is the main glue throughout the Universe. Another unprovable assumption just to prove my delusions.

[Linz]

You lucky dog! Sadly, the universe seems to find me fascinating.

The joys of being an airhead.

Are you familiar with Jiddu Krishnamurti? He's written extensively regarding the observer and observed.

Meditation is just the process of gaining some conscious control over this naturally occurring function of the brain.

It's probably best not to try it while naked women are in your office though, as this is an exercise reserved for true experts.

No I haven't read Krishnamurti, but Meditation is totally about conscious control of the mind.
I'll try and remember to call an expert if I strike the naked women situation.

If we just wait patiently, this usually goes away, but our inability to wait patiently is often what brought us to meditation in the first place so....

Precisely what makes it so difficult initially to practice. The mind does not appreciate being reined in.

Makes sense to me. The heaviness is not thought so much, as our attachment to it. If that attachment is loosened, a feeling of lightness makes sense.

The attachments are all the emotional garbage we carry around. That causes the weight and meditation breaks the attachments. It's like tossing out ballast.

It might be leading to a place where you'll no longer feel a need to have theories about you and the universe, and will be content to simply be. Not that I would know mind you, just a theory.

Exactly. As I've already experienced that the concept of a self is an illusion, I am quite content with the notion that there simply IS end of story.

[Linz]

Thanks for your patience but you wont get me to go along with this. There is no sense in which we can assume that the senses work on a mirco-level as you describe.
I think I have experienced the most basic level of experience possible. THis was achieved in a state of sensory depravation and on drugs of various kinds on other occasions. Years later whilst studying Palaeolithic and Southern African rock art, some of the images (mainly geometric) that my brain conjured up for me were to be seen in both examples of rock art separated by thousands of years and in two separate continents. Sure enough there is a body of theory that relates such geometric images as the most fundamental tabula rasa upon which our minds are apt to lay their interpretations from the visual senses.
You might have heard of Entoptic Images?
http://psychedelic-information-theory.c ... -Phenomena
This might help you understand your mediations a little better.
Entoptics are the skeleton of the nervous system upon which we place the flesh of our understanding of the world.
You might like to look into this.

Wasn't expecting you to go along with this. Just thought I'd try and see if I could put some of the experience in to words. Main thing is you're happy with how you look at the world and so am I with my perspective.
In the early years of my meditations I went through the visual layer of the subconscious that the early surrealists such as Yves Tanguey obviously tapped in to.
Am long since over any apprehension and am just fascinated in where it's going. The Universe is a highly wondrous thing.

[chaz wyman]

Thanks for your patience but you wont get me to go along with this. There is no sense in which we can assume that the senses work on a mirco-level as you describe.
I think I have experienced the most basic level of experience possible. THis was achieved in a state of sensory depravation and on drugs of various kinds on other occasions. Years later whilst studying Palaeolithic and Southern African rock art, some of the images (mainly geometric) that my brain conjured up for me were to be seen in both examples of rock art separated by thousands of years and in two separate continents. Sure enough there is a body of theory that relates such geometric images as the most fundamental tabula rasa upon which our minds are apt to lay their interpretations from the visual senses.
You might have heard of Entoptic Images?
http://psychedelic-information-theory.c ... -Phenomena
This might help you understand your mediations a little better.
Entoptics are the skeleton of the nervous system upon which we place the flesh of our understanding of the world.
You might like to look into this.

Wasn't expecting you to go along with this. Just thought I'd try and see if I could put some of the experience in to words. Main thing is you're happy with how you look at the world and so am I with my perspective.
In the early years of my meditations I went through the visual layer of the subconscious that the early surrealists such as Yves Tanguey obviously tapped in to.
Am long since over any apprehension and am just fascinated in where it's going. The Universe is a highly wondrous thing.

True, but try not to forget that most of the Universe is not inside your head but on the outside of it.