The USA and Israel

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Iwannaplato
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Iwannaplato »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
We discussed this whole issue in terms of abortion once. And you lamented that Israel was a secular government and the other side was Muslims so of course it was not going to be good, which was just a way of not dealing with what a commitment to an anti-abortion stance would mean. Now you want me to plan the tactics and strategy that Israel should use when dealing with Hamas. A perfectly reasonable question coming from someone else. But here you are justifying choices that will lead to the deaths of unborn children. When you justify it, you don't frame it as a anti-abortion Christian. When that issue comes up, well the government of Israel is secular.

Which all wiggling around, which is what I have seen you do in all sorts of contexts. So, for you, you need to decide whether abortion and killing the unborn is OK for people to do if they are secular or not. Is it a hard rule from God, or does it depend? Does one get to look at consequences or not? And in general, those rules that come from the Bible, is it that they must be followed regardless of the consequences - and rewards and punishments are dealth with later by God? Or isn't the whole point of these moral rules that, yes, they may be hard, they may lead to negative consequences in this world, even catastrophic ones, but they are rules from God, period....or not?

You wiggled and avoided and never dealt with the issue. I think it's an excellent question you asked.

But as a person who has presented himself as a Christian and weighed in on the rules within that religion as sacred, then that's the issue, it seems to me you need to work out. Otherwise all your moralizing here is meaningless.
Gary Childress
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:09 am
accelafine wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:05 am Why would it be necessary to understand the nitty gritties of Israeli politics or even any of its history whatsoever to know that beheading babies and burning families alive are evil acts?
Genuinely curious :?
Yeah, cause there's no way possible to think those actions of Hamas were evil and be critical also of Israel's policies and actions.
There would be. But it wouldn't be easy to say how you'd do it with any equity, or with any chance of success.

Hamas killed 1400 innocent civilians...men, women, children, babies, grandmothers...with rape, torture, disembowling, burning, shooting...and still has 240 innocent civilian hostages -- or maybe only 238, since two more were found dead today. And they're still shooting rockets, and trying to kill the Israelis. Meanwhile, they throw their own people into harm's way in order to protect themselves, and shoot their own civilians when they heed Israeli warnings and try to leave the danger areas.

So if you can tell Israel how to deal with these people, who have sworn to die killing Jews and will kill themselves and all their own people in a heartbeat, so that Israel can deal with them in a more humane way, I'm sure Israel will listen. For it does not serve Israeli interests to be involved in civilian deaths of either side, and Israel would gladly solve their problem with no further loss of civilian life.

So what do you want them to do, that Hamas will allow them to do?
Perhaps you are right. Hamas has demonstrated that it is beyond the point where other human beings can reason with them. Unfortunately, civilians that they are hiding among are caught in the line of fire. It's a no-win situation. My understanding is that Israel has been trying to negotiate cease-fires and Hamas flagrantly violates them. I see no reasonable way to help Arab civilians in Gaza. Israel seems perfectly justified in its reaction and Hamas seems undeniably evil.

I see no way out of that verdict. And when people guided by evil take over, there is no other choice good people can make other than to combat those committed to doing evil. I wish there were peaceful ways of dealing with the situation. But there are not.

Iran and those helping Hamas are complicit in the deaths of both Arab and Israeli civilians. The people of Gaza have been used and betrayed by those in Iran supporting Hamas. Iran, N. Korea, Russia, and China are morally wrong. They need to clean up their act. I suggest the people of those countries rise up and oust their leaders in favor of democracy. That would be preferable to their leaders invoking a war with the more civilized nations of world.
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accelafine
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by accelafine »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:09 am Yeah, cause there's no way possible to think those actions of Hamas were evil and be critical also of Israel's policies and actions.
There would be. But it wouldn't be easy to say how you'd do it with any equity, or with any chance of success.

Hamas killed 1400 innocent civilians...men, women, children, babies, grandmothers...with rape, torture, disembowling, burning, shooting...and still has 240 innocent civilian hostages -- or maybe only 238, since two more were found dead today. And they're still shooting rockets, and trying to kill the Israelis. Meanwhile, they throw their own people into harm's way in order to protect themselves, and shoot their own civilians when they heed Israeli warnings and try to leave the danger areas.

So if you can tell Israel how to deal with these people, who have sworn to die killing Jews and will kill themselves and all their own people in a heartbeat, so that Israel can deal with them in a more humane way, I'm sure Israel will listen. For it does not serve Israeli interests to be involved in civilian deaths of either side, and Israel would gladly solve their problem with no further loss of civilian life.

So what do you want them to do, that Hamas will allow them to do?
Perhaps you are right. Hamas has demonstrated that it is beyond the point where other human beings can reason with them. Unfortunately, civilians that they are hiding among are caught in the line of fire. It's a no-win situation. My understanding is that Israel has been trying to negotiate cease-fires and Hamas flagrantly violates them. I see no reasonable way to help Arab civilians in Gaza. Israel seems perfectly justified in its reaction and Hamas seems undeniably evil.

I see no way out of that verdict. And when people guided by evil take over, there is no other choice good people can make other than to combat those committed to doing evil. I wish there were peaceful ways of dealing with the situation. But there are not.

Iran and those helping Hamas are complicit in the deaths of both Arab and Israeli civilians. The people of Gaza have been used and betrayed by those in Iran supporting Hamas. Iran, N. Korea, Russia, and China are morally wrong. They need to clean up their act. I suggest the people of those countries rise up and oust their leaders in favor of democracy. That would be preferable to their leaders invoking a war with the more civilized nations of world.
Well said, but I suspect that Gazans for the most part support Hamas. Some people just can't be helped.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
We discussed this whole issue in terms of abortion once.
I don't recall us ever doing that. In any case, it's not responsive to the question I asked.
Now you want me to plan the tactics and strategy that Israel should use when dealing with Hamas.
Well, if you mean for them to do anything other than surrender to total genocide, then you need to have a plan. Otherwise, your calls for a ceasefire are just genocide.

I'd like you to speak plainly: other than Israel surrendering to genocide, what have you got?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:09 am Yeah, cause there's no way possible to think those actions of Hamas were evil and be critical also of Israel's policies and actions.
There would be. But it wouldn't be easy to say how you'd do it with any equity, or with any chance of success.

Hamas killed 1400 innocent civilians...men, women, children, babies, grandmothers...with rape, torture, disembowling, burning, shooting...and still has 240 innocent civilian hostages -- or maybe only 238, since two more were found dead today. And they're still shooting rockets, and trying to kill the Israelis. Meanwhile, they throw their own people into harm's way in order to protect themselves, and shoot their own civilians when they heed Israeli warnings and try to leave the danger areas.

So if you can tell Israel how to deal with these people, who have sworn to die killing Jews and will kill themselves and all their own people in a heartbeat, so that Israel can deal with them in a more humane way, I'm sure Israel will listen. For it does not serve Israeli interests to be involved in civilian deaths of either side, and Israel would gladly solve their problem with no further loss of civilian life.

So what do you want them to do, that Hamas will allow them to do?
Perhaps you are right. Hamas has demonstrated that it is beyond the point where other human beings can reason with them. Unfortunately, civilians that they are hiding among are caught in the line of fire.
Only because Hamas is holding them there. It was never by accident that they build their terrorist infrastructure directly under hospitals, schools and mosques...it was strategic. They were daring Israel to come after them, at the extreme peril of Palestinian civilian lives. And when Hamas butchered 1400 innocent citizens of Israel, they were forcing Israel's hand.

The whole things has been staged and orchestrated by Hamas. That's why the only solution is for Hamas to be gone. And international intervention could make that happen...but won't. Hamas knew that, too, apparently. So they're going to make Israel kill all of them, and along with them, the most Gazan citizens they can.
I see no way out of that verdict.
I think that perhaps international intervention to eliminate Hamas would do it. If Hamas were truly isolated and being hunted by a coalition of elite warriors of a multinational force, there'd no longer be a way for them to play that story for a win. They'd have to surrender or die. They couldn't "play off" Western Leftists and Arab totalitarians against Israel, which is what they're working on now. Then sign the Abraham accords with Syria, signaling their total defeat.

But that won't happen: and Hamas is never going to let ANY solution be free of casualties.
Walker
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Walker »

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 7:56 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:09 am Yeah, cause there's no way possible to think those actions of Hamas were evil and be critical also of Israel's policies and actions.
There would be. But it wouldn't be easy to say how you'd do it with any equity, or with any chance of success.

Hamas killed 1400 innocent civilians...men, women, children, babies, grandmothers...with rape, torture, disembowling, burning, shooting...and still has 240 innocent civilian hostages -- or maybe only 238, since two more were found dead today. And they're still shooting rockets, and trying to kill the Israelis. Meanwhile, they throw their own people into harm's way in order to protect themselves, and shoot their own civilians when they heed Israeli warnings and try to leave the danger areas.

So if you can tell Israel how to deal with these people, who have sworn to die killing Jews and will kill themselves and all their own people in a heartbeat, so that Israel can deal with them in a more humane way, I'm sure Israel will listen. For it does not serve Israeli interests to be involved in civilian deaths of either side, and Israel would gladly solve their problem with no further loss of civilian life.

So what do you want them to do, that Hamas will allow them to do?
Perhaps you are right. Hamas has demonstrated that it is beyond the point where other human beings can reason with them. Unfortunately, civilians that they are hiding among are caught in the line of fire. It's a no-win situation. My understanding is that Israel has been trying to negotiate cease-fires and Hamas flagrantly violates them. I see no reasonable way to help Arab civilians in Gaza. Israel seems perfectly justified in its reaction and Hamas seems undeniably evil.

I see no way out of that verdict. And when people guided by evil take over, there is no other choice good people can make other than to combat those committed to doing evil. I wish there were peaceful ways of dealing with the situation. But there are not.

Iran and those helping Hamas are complicit in the deaths of both Arab and Israeli civilians. The people of Gaza have been used and betrayed by those in Iran supporting Hamas. Iran, N. Korea, Russia, and China are morally wrong. They need to clean up their act. I suggest the people of those countries rise up and oust their leaders in favor of democracy. That would be preferable to their leaders invoking a war with the more civilized nations of world.
Wow. Looks like a good explanation from Immanuel Can can also effectively persuade the once unpersuadable Gary Childress. What's next? Gary telling us that God is good?
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accelafine
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by accelafine »

Turkish MP drops dead while making an anti-Israel speech saying the 'wrath of Allah will come down on them'.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... ament-dies
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Sculptor
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Sculptor »

accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:41 pm Turkish MP drops dead while making an anti-Israel speech saying the 'wrath of Allah will come down on them'.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... ament-dies
What is your point.

Do you think this is funny?
Walker
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Walker »

accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:41 pm Turkish MP drops dead while making an anti-Israel speech saying the 'wrath of Allah will come down on them'.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... ament-dies
He was smote rather than smitten.
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accelafine
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by accelafine »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:49 pm
accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:41 pm Turkish MP drops dead while making an anti-Israel speech saying the 'wrath of Allah will come down on them'.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... ament-dies
What is your point.

Do you think this is funny?
Yes. It's hilarious.
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Sculptor
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Sculptor »

accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:56 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:49 pm
accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:41 pm Turkish MP drops dead while making an anti-Israel speech saying the 'wrath of Allah will come down on them'.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... ament-dies
What is your point.

Do you think this is funny?
Yes. It's hilarious.
So a person dies of a heart attack and you think that hilarious.
What a wanker !
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Sculptor
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Sculptor »

And for the dim wits that seem to believe in portents.....

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZiIIK7TyQl0
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accelafine
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by accelafine »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:04 pm
accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:56 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 12:49 pm

What is your point.

Do you think this is funny?
Yes. It's hilarious.
So a person dies of a heart attack and you think that hilarious.
What a wanker !
Yep. I don't care about psychopahtic old cun ts who applaud the torture of children. He had an easy death. Why the f would I give a shit about that?
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accelafine
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by accelafine »

The woke are really confused about the meaning of empathy. I suppose we should pity them.
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Sculptor
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Sculptor »

accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:07 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:04 pm
accelafine wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 6:56 pm

Yes. It's hilarious.
So a person dies of a heart attack and you think that hilarious.
What a wanker !
Yep. I don't care about psychopahtic old cun ts who applaud the torture of children. He had an easy death. Why the f would I give a shit about that?
But you are okay with 4000 Palestinian children?
Because, what, they are just animals?
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