The USA and Israel

[attofishpi]

Just as the US is there, now. And Canada. And Australia. And Egypt. And probably every country on the planet.

What!!? You actually think that every country on the planet exists? Wow, you're a genius, thanks for letting us all know.

..are you sure Israel Isreal?

Did you evolve in Australia? If you didn't then you really should leave. There were people there before you.

Well by that logic you should return to Africa, since that's where we all 'evolved' from.

[Iwannaplato]

Typical of the hypocrisy of so-called self-proclaimed 'Marxists'. Pretend to care so much about Gazans, yet couldn't give a rat's arse that the leaders of Hamas are billionaires-- billions that were stolen from the people of Gaza. Leaders who look down their noses at the place to the extent that they won't even live there.

Yes, you're right. It is utterly impossible to loathe Hamas' leaders and tactics and be sympathetic to the children and other Palestinians getting killed. And one cannot possibly be critical of the Israeli government/military actions and not be antisemitic. If you are critical of something Israel is doing you think it was a good thing that Hamas, for example, killed the young party goers and raped and killed women. It is a logical necessity. It's as true as 2+2=, well, whatever that equals, it's as true as that.

Finally Philosophy Now has accelafine who understands that everything is utterly binary. It's all simple. Every conflict is simple. One side good, should not be criticized for anything. One side bad, no sympathy for anyone on that side for any reason.

Anyone breaking this hard and fast, impervious to logical criticism, philosophical rule is a woke Nazi communist anti-semitic, transperson with blue hair.

So simple. No need to think, finally. Just join in and hurl bile. Why, a simpleton could manage to understand this and spread it.

A blessing upon us.

[accelafine]

What!!? You actually think that every country on the planet exists? Wow, you're a genius, thanks for letting us all know.

..are you sure Israel Isreal?

Did you evolve in Australia? If you didn't then you really should leave. There were people there before you.

Well by that logic you should return to Africa, since that's where we all 'evolved' from.

No. By your logic.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist? I don't think there are any 'zionists' around today.

A foolish statement.

Zionism is still hotly debated in Israel. And by Jews in the Diaspora. Zionists generally hold to the belief in a Jewish state. Many Israelis now are advocating for one Israeli state that includes everyone (all Palestinians of WB and Gaza, all refugees). The model referred to is post-Apartheid S. Africa. That idea is not allowed in classical Zionism.

That idea is virulently opposed by all Haredim as far as I know. Zionism defines itself through Jewish exclusion and separation.

Read more articles in Haaretz to get a better view of wide-ranging opinion about this and many other things. Look up Miko Peled’s YouTube presentations of his own turn from stark Zionist to democratic pluralist and Anti-Zionist.

[phyllo]

Many Israelis now are advocating for one Israeli state that includes everyone (all Palestinians of WB and Gaza, all refugees). The model referred to is post-Apartheid S. Africa.

And in that model, do the Palestinians have the same rights and protections as the Jews?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Many Israelis now are advocating for one Israeli state that includes everyone (all Palestinians of WB and Gaza, all refugees). The model referred to is post-Apartheid S. Africa.

And in that model, do the Palestinians have the same rights and protections as the Jews?

In that model there would be no other option. Israel would operate as a multi-ethnic democratic state.

It is true that there are Israelis and Jews who do advocate for such a state, however they are a minority and all are Left-Progressive types. None on the Right (to my knowledge) advocate for such a state. And none or extremely few in the Orthodox religious sector advocate for it. But some in Orthodoxy cannot support the Zionist state of Israel — for mytho-religious reasons. The Exile was God-ordained. Zionism for some falsely jump-started a “return” the justification for which is not accepted by religious interpretation.

But not all Orthodox see it this way.

Prior to Oct 7 Israeli society was in a significant upheaval having to do with identity and secular politics vs religio-political politics and definitions. The Hamas operation exploited those divisions and as such (when seen in objective military terms) was brilliant and effective. The present state of Israel might not survive and may have to be restructured on different lines. I doubt that Hamas imagined the intensity of Israel’s retributive attack (scale and number of dead) but Palestinians define themselves through martyrdom and sacrifice.

How any of this will be resolved is anyone’s guess. But in no sense is Israel ‘winning’ and indeed it cannot win.

I have said it before: Jewish history has not ended. Written into itself (into Judaism fundamentally) there is never an ‘end’. Religious Jews literally believe that the Moshiach’s arrival is imminent.

Israeli society is a hodgepodge of bizarre and conflicting views, beliefs and existential interpretation. A bit of a madhouse really.

You can’t look at Israel through a rationalist’s eyes. You’ll go astray quite quickly.

In any case: what we see today is only the beginning. Though I cannot predict what is next all signs point to larger and more extreme dramas to come.

[phyllo]

Prior to Oct 7 Israeli society was in a significant upheaval having to do with identity and secular politics vs religio-political politics and definitions. The Hamas operation exploited those divisions and as such (when seen in objective military terms) was brilliant and effective. The present state of Israel might not survive and may have to be restructured on different lines. I doubt that Hamas imagined the intensity of Israel’s retributive attack (scale and number of dead) but Palestinians define themselves through martyrdom and sacrifice.

No, it was a terrible mistake.

But a boiling frog has few options.

Or as chess players say ... in a poor position, bad moves are easy to find.

Israel will be reconstructed but with fewer, weaker, Palestinians.

[Alexis Jacobi]

No, it was a terrible mistake.

You are speaking I think from a biased position. I read and listen to military analysts who see in military realpolitik’s terms.

I agree with you that what is unfolding is tragic and horrifying, but I have a feeling (intuition if you will) that it will not turn out beneficial to the present ruling group in Israel nor for Jewry generally.

People argue these issues from terribly subjective and biased positions. I propose seeing things from a more removed historical position — if possible.

If a person needs to orient themselves in subjectivity, well okay. But technically we have access to the possibility of a philosophical perspective.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Miko Peled

If you are interested in the Left Progressive anti-Zionist view and political activism.

[phyllo]

No, it was a terrible mistake.

You are speaking I think from a biased position. I read and listen to military analysts who see in military realpolitik’s terms.

I agree with you that what is unfolding is tragic and horrifying, but I have a feeling (intuition if you will) that it will not turn out beneficial to the present ruling group in Israel nor for Jewry generally.

People argue these issues from terribly subjective and biased positions. I propose seeing things from a more removed historical position — if possible.

If a person needs to orient themselves in subjectivity, well okay. But technically we have access to the possibility of a philosophical perspective.

If you look at the possible outcomes, the Palestinians are always in a poor position.

Building and infrastructure destroyed, they are stuck moving elsewhere or living in tent refugee camps. Their bargaining position is not better than it was before.

Israel takes on short term "bad guy" label but it gets to rebuild on its own terms. It has an even greater rationalization for it's actions. The radical right parties are strengthened.

I don't see how Israel is going to be worse off in any sense.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Here is a short talk that illuminates radical Zionist belief about Moshiach and about the declared annihilation of Amalek (cf Netanyahu’s recent speech).

As we learn from interaction with our own religious zealot we cannot understand what is on-going today by imagining these beliefs have a rational basis.

[phyllo]

And how does that video show that the present situation will not turn out beneficial to the present ruling group in Israel nor for Jewry generally?

[Immanuel Can]

It could be said and argued that "hamas" began, or was started, BECAUSE they were 'standing up' for the innocent human beings who were being MURDERED and DISPLACED.

That would be a foolish argument, since abundant archaeological evidence shows the Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years, the majority only being displaced after the Romans burned Jerusalem. It would also be a barbarous argument, seeing as Hamas tore open pregnant women and cut up their babies in front of their eyes, and brutalized and kidnapped old people and children, and raped young women to death and then sat on their bodies and laughed.

That ain't freedom fighting, chum...that's a massacre.

BUT, the people of "israel" have declared that 'they' will NOT stop until 'those human beings' have been WIPED OFF the earth.

They have not, actually: that's a libel on your part. They've been warning civilians before any operations. Hamas won't let its own people flee to safety, and keeps firing rockets into Israel.

Israel has long campaigned for a two-state solution, but the Palestinians won't have it. Israel clearly has no interest in killing more Palestinians...but Hamas won't let them stop.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And how does that video show that the present situation will not turn out beneficial to the present ruling group in Israel nor for Jewry generally?

That is not a point I see value in debating. Neither of us — no one of us — can say what will happen next, where it leads or how it will end. I suggest that it was a brilliant military operation. I recognize that goes against a conventional assessment.

I also suggest that *you* (a plural, general you) devote time to better understanding the background here.

Here is a very useful presentation that will help to much better understand fundamental Judaism in a wider religious context.

No one I have encountered on this forum seems to me to understand what a Jew is. We all know — or are — post-Jews.

More knowledge, better understanding.

[Alexis Jacobi]

It would also be a barbarous argument, seeing as Hamas tore open pregnant women and cut up their babies in front of their eyes, and brutalized and kidnapped old people and children, and raped young women to death and then sat on their bodies and laughed.

I would have to see the visual evidence. So far, what I have read is that those stories were proven to be false.

In war time propaganda accounts must be viewed skeptically.

But we know, Manny, how deeply committed to your fictions you are. Your entire outlook is based in them.

Word to the wise.