The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

[bahman]

No you do not.
It's nonsense

You do this in a closed manifold. Think of a sphere. It is a closed manifold. An individual living on this surface reaches the same point if he moves long enough on the sphere.

Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

[VVilliam]

Which one of you two is arguing for the universe having a supernatural explanation for its existing?

[bahman]

Which one of you two is arguing for the universe having a supernatural explanation for its existing?

For now, we are discussing whether the universe has a beginning. I already answered the question here.

[Sculptor]

You do this in a closed manifold. Think of a sphere. It is a closed manifold. An individual living on this surface reaches the same point if he moves long enough on the sphere.

Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

[bahman]

Okay, think of reality. Think of your experience, and think of England.

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

[Sculptor]

The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. That is why we cannot experience reaching the same point in spacetime given the fact that we cannot travel fast enough or wait long enough. Of course, if the spacetime manifold is closed.

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

[bahman]

What you are claiming is a fantasy. It is way beyond any empirical ability to confirm of deny. It's just conceptual masturbation

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

[Sculptor]

Maybe Open Universe is mental masturbation. How could we know?

If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

[Atla]

Open and closed universes are, well, philosophy. And this is, well, a philosophy forum.
For the Kalam, the temporal dimension (the dimension that is time, or in which time is a path), needs to be open. Closed temporal dimension = no Kalam.

[bahman]

If you have to ask; then it is.

So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

[Atla]

Even many physicists are actually so bad at imagining a closed universe even in space, that they tend to think that the universe has to be curved for it. That's utter hogwash, the default view imo is that the universe is closed and completely flat. And imagining a closed universe in time is even harder than this.

So now physicists are surprised that so far the universe seems to be indeed flat. Yeah yeah.

[Sculptor]

So you agree?

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

[bahman]

Yes, as I said. It is mental masturbation, as you too now seem to agree.

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

[Sculptor]

No, I am agnostic when it comes to the universe being closed or open. There is no fact.

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

There is absolutely NO warrent for the claim that you reach the same point.
And is utterly illogical to suggest you end up at the same time.

[Atla]

But you said"The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it takes a very long time to reach the same point by traveling. " and made other positivist statements about the universe.
Make up your mind

I should have said that "The problem is that spacetime is a huge manifold so it might take a very long time to reach the same point by traveling."

There is absolutely NO warrent for the claim that you reach the same point.
And is utterly illogical to suggest you end up at the same time.

We do by definition in a finite closed manifold.