compatibilism

[Iwannaplato]

I like this idea.

However, I only recently saw 12 monkeys, and Age is JUST like Bruce Willis in that film - a man going mad from too much time travel, he can't tell what's true anymore.

I'm going mad from time travel, even if it's the mundane, forward by seconds that other people seem to experience also. They just seem better adjusted to this time travel than I am.

[Iwannaplato]

Well, if it's not a mistake, then it would invalidate science, engineering, mathematics and logic. There would be no correct observations, calculations, designs or reasoning. You would not be able to construct any kind of system.

This is a good point because this is the first time he is, more or less, saying that there is no is/ought distinction. We can't know what objective morals are and we can't know facts. (Perhaps he's had such thoughts before, but in general he has, I believe referring to the difference between these two realms. One we can determine, the other we cannot. Now he is falling into complete pyrrhic nihilism.)

[iambiguous]

Who was responsible for the Holocaust? Hitler and his Nazis, right?

The actual historical fact of it and where the responsibilities lie for it is something that comes about as close as we mere mortals are likely to get to objectively reality.

Though there are still Holocaust deniers out there:
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... d#p2655651

But if we do live in a world whereby Hitler was never able not to pursue the Holocaust as government policy, how can he be held morally responsible for it? And while there are those on both sides able to discuss and debate this, how would we go about determining whether the discussion and the debate itself was not in turn but another inherent manifestation of the only possible reality?

Then the question is not whether someone did something. The question is should they be blamed or praised for doing it?

That's a distinction without a difference to some determinists. If human brains, wholly in sync with laws of nature, compel someone to do something that she was never able not to do and then compel us to react to what she's done in the only manner we were ever able to react to it, it's still six of one, half a dozen of the other.

So 'responsibility' is either doing or not doing. And 'moral responsibility' is doing or not doing and an evaluation of the act as good or bad.

Again, to those truly hardcore determinists, they are both inherent/necessary existential components of the only possible essential reality. Nothing that we do is not fated/destined to unfold. Nature "somehow" created matter like dominoes to topple over onto other matter per matter's "immutable laws".

Whatever that means given all we still don't know what those...Big Questions?

But that would mean that the bear is morally responsible because killing a person is either good or bad. That settles it.

Sure, if that is actually what you have managed -- compelled or not -- to think yourself into believing, fine. But bears, being compelled by their brains to eat anything they can lay their paws on, seems clearly [to others] to be a manifestation of "biological imperatives". And thus they did not themselves factor morality into their behaviors.

Then you move on to saying that there is no difference between good and bad, right and wrong in a determined world :

It makes all the difference in the world if what is construed to be a mistake in court revolves around the assumption that we can opt freely not to make it. As opposed to a world where "mistakes" are in fact merely a necessary component of the only possible reality. If you must argue that 2 + 2 = 5 and if you were never able not to embrace one set of moral prejudices rather than another...how is that really a mistake at all?

Well, if it's not a mistake, then it would invalidate science, engineering, mathematics and logic. There would be no correct observations, calculations, designs or reasoning. You would not be able to construct any kind of system.

What can I say...

Sure, your thinking here may be more applicable than mine in regard to grasping the "for all practical purposes" implication of compatibilism and moral responsibility. But you still have no way in which to pin that down beyond the tools of philosophy here.

But the fact that the brains of some compel them to be wrong about objective truths in the either/or world, doesn't make those truths go away.

And then the part where the discussions shift to conflicting value judgments. And the part where the objectivists among us make little or no distinction at all between what is in fact true about abortion as a medical procedure and abortion as a moral issue.

[attofishpi]

What organisation sent you back? For what purpose?

I had decided, mainly for fun, that he is a channeled entity (that perhaps is also inside all of us), who is time-transcendent.

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

[Iwannaplato]

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

One can 'foe' him, and then his posts glide by almost unnoticed. And yes, I think he has destructive tendencies. Of course, if everyone ignored him, he couldn't do much at all

[Age]

And, EXACTLY as I ALREADY SAID and WROTE, But then 'you', people, in the days when this was being written, were NOT YET FULLY AWARE of the ACTUAL DIFFERENCES. As, if 'you' did, then 'you' would ALREADY KNOW the ACTUAL ANSWER/SOLUTION to these types of 'thought experiments'.

Tell us what time period of the future you're from please.

There is ONLY HERE-NOW.

And how does time travel work?

The phrase or term 'time travel' is a misnomer. But how one can do what the words 'travel travel' refers to is by just traveling faster than the speed of light, and the direction of travel controls the direction of going 'backwards in/to the past' or going 'forwards in/to the future'. Now, although a few/majority of 'you' people, in the days when this is being written, believe, and some believe absolute, that so-called 'time travel' and/or traveling faster than the speed of light is impossible let us not forget that absolutely EVERY 'thing' that 'you', human beings, have created and/or achieved, since evolving into being, was once also believed impossible as well.

Is it the type of time travel where you can't change the past because anything you do is something that already happened?

This has been 'the issue' all along. When you go back in/to 'the past' you CAN change the past. Now, imagine if this kind of traveling came into existence in the days when this is being written, those with the most money, that is; those who are the most greedy, and thus those with seemingly the most power as well, would go 'back into the past' and WOULD CHANGE 'things' so that 'they' could obtain more money and thus have seemingly more power. 'Those' ones would literally want to have MORE CONTROL and MORE POWER, OVER more people.

Now, because there is a somewhat 'natural order of things', in Life, Itself, 'this kind of traveling' does not become possible until greed is gotten rid of, or removed, from society, completely. So that when 'we' do start traveling 'this way' although 'we' CAN CHANGE 'the past' there is NO one who wants to NOR even desires to obtain more money nor more 'power'.

In 'this way of life' human beings have also already evolved KNOWING that ACTUALLY with the ability, and power, of being able to travel 'this way' means that, REALLY, money is what 'it' has ALWAYS BEEN, that is; 'a Truly WORTHLESS thing'. With the ABILITY to travel into 'the past' and into 'the future', then there is NO need for money AT ALL.

What is also possible with 'this way of traveling' is the ability to go 'into the past', 'pick' (up) some, and bring 'them' 'into the future' where a whole new 'way of life and living' has come-into-Existence, and thus is existing. That is; a far MORE peaceful and harmonious 'way of life, and living'. As is already been mentioned in some books and writings.

Also, and by the way, what a lot of 'you', human beings, in the days when this is being written envision/imagine/think when 'you' hear or see the words 'unidentified flying object' and/or 'unidentified aerial phenomena' is of 'aliens' or of "other life forms" from other planets or other civilizations without ever having even considered that 'they' could be/are just 'us', coming back. Obviously, if and when what is Wrongly called 'time travel' occurs, then what could be seen is 'us' coming back in 'ships' or 'objects' but which 'we' will NOT intentionally introduce "ourselves", that is; UNTIL 'you', ones, have evolved MORE and behave DIFFERENTLY than how 'you', adult ones, do 'now', when this is being written.

But, by 'coming back' and 'showing' "ourselves" in 'flying machines', without introducing "ourselves" SHOWS that 'the way of traveling' IS POSSIBLE. Which then, obviously, has an affect/influence on what happens into and towards 'the future'.

Or is it the type where you can actually change the past, for better or worse?

By just making 'an appearance' CHANGES 'things'. Absolutely EVERY 'thing' that happens or occurs CAUSES A CHANGE in one way or another. How MUCH 'things' CHANGE all depends on who and/or what is 'bumped into', and imagine what would happen if the knowledge of how to 'travel into the past and into the future' 'bumped into' and was obtained by the 'most greedy ones', in the days when this is being written. Going by and on 'past experiences' 'they' are SURELY NOT going to SHARE 'this knowledge and ability' WITH "others". Going 'on the past' 'they' would just USE 'this knowledge and ability' for theirs and a select few OWN monetary wealth and power growth.

What organisation sent you back?

No organization.

This is, literally, a Self-organized exercise in Self-Actualization.

For what purpose?

To SHOW and REVEAL HOW, through evolution and 'you', human beings, 'I' came-to-KNOW thy, and thee, Self.

[Age]

Well then, thank fuck you now understand:- U R AN IDIOT

WHY are you ASSUMING that I did NOT 'understand' BEFORE?

Because U R AN IDIOT.

Especially considering the fact that I have ALREADY SHOWED the IRREFUTABLE RESULT of that so-called 'thought experiment'.

Thus it must irrefutably prove that .....U R AN IDIOT.

The MORE 'you' call 'I' AN IDIOT, the MORE 'you' SHOW and PROVE HOW the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORKS, which the BETTER 'this' WORKS OUT for ALL of 'us'.

[Age]

He's not an idiot, he's just from the future. He hasn't learned our ways yet. His futuristic ways seem idiotic to us back in our day, but in his time it all makes a whole lot of sense.

Although this is NOT absolutely True there is quite a deal of Truth in this.

[Age]

What organisation sent you back? For what purpose?

I had decided, mainly for fun, that he is a channeled entity (that perhaps is also inside all of us), who is time-transcendent. Which is why he himself is sometimes in citation marks.

I consider 'this' a fairly good/great assessment.

I STILL, however, just suggest CLARIFYING, FIRST, BEFORE 'deciding' to CHOOSE 'a position' one way or another. But, please feel absolutely free to CHOOSE to do whatever you LIKE to do.

I mean, the future people could be messed up in their own special ways. This is an entity unsullied by time, culture and specifics.

The host may well be some middle-aged postal worker with few social connections, but Age, he's from nowhen.

[Age]

What organisation sent you back? For what purpose?

I had decided, mainly for fun, that he is a channeled entity (that perhaps is also inside all of us), who is time-transcendent. Which is why he himself is sometimes in citation marks.

I mean, the future people could be messed up in their own special ways. This is an entity unsullied by time, culture and specifics.

The host may well be some middle-aged postal worker with few social connections, but Age, he's from nowhen.

I like this idea.

However, I only recently saw 12 monkeys, and Age is JUST like Bruce Willis in that film - a man going mad from too much time travel, he can't tell what's true anymore.

What is 'it', EXACTLY, which you ASSUME or BELIEVE I can NOT tell what IS 'true' ANYMORE?

[Age]

Well, if it's not a mistake, then it would invalidate science, engineering, mathematics and logic. There would be no correct observations, calculations, designs or reasoning. You would not be able to construct any kind of system.

This is a good point because this is the first time he is, more or less, saying that there is no is/ought distinction. We can't know what objective morals are and we can't know facts.

BUT 'we' do ALREADY KNOW what 'objective morals' ARE, EXACTLY. 'We' ALREADY KNOW what 'morality' MEANS and/or REFERS TO, EXACTLY, and how 'objectivity' is OBTAINED and REACHED, EXACTLY, and thus what 'objective morals' ARE. Who and/or what 'we' are 'I' refer to is just, obvously, DIFFERENT from who and/or what 'we' is that 'you' refer to.

(Perhaps he's had such thoughts before, but in general he has, I believe referring to the difference between these two realms. One we can determine, the other we cannot. Now he is falling into complete pyrrhic nihilism.)

[Age]

What organisation sent you back? For what purpose?

I had decided, mainly for fun, that he is a channeled entity (that perhaps is also inside all of us), who is time-transcendent.

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

This one here ACTUALLY BELIEVES that 'it' KNOWS what IS WRITTEN, WITHOUT EVER READING 'the words'.

[attofishpi]

I had decided, mainly for fun, that he is a channeled entity (that perhaps is also inside all of us), who is time-transcendent.

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

This one here ACTUALLY BELIEVES that 'it' KNOWS what IS WRITTEN, WITHOUT EVER READING 'the words'.

What can I say, I must be channeled by Discern the Great, making me able to scan and discern crap in atto seconds.

[Age]

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

One can 'foe' him, and then his posts glide by almost unnoticed. And yes, I think he has destructive tendencies. Of course, if everyone ignored him, he couldn't do much at all

1. My DESTRUCTIVE tendencies are to JUST DESTRUCT 'this world' or 'this Wrong way of life and living' that 'you', adult human beings, have created and are continuing to create, in the days when this is being written.

2. If ALL of 'you', posters, IGNORED me/my words here, then this PROVES FURTHER my CLAIMS ABOUT how the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK.

3. I AM STILL DOING and CREATING MUCH, if NOT ACTUALLY MORE, even when 'I' AM IGNORED by 'you', people, BACK in the days when this WAS being written.

[Age]

Sure, he's being channeled by Moth the Great, malevolent destroyer of forum threads, and waster of smart-tv remote control batteries (where one has to hold the down button to scroll through copious amounts of crap from his channeled bot, Age).

This one here ACTUALLY BELIEVES that 'it' KNOWS what IS WRITTEN, WITHOUT EVER READING 'the words'.

What can I say, I must be channeled by Discern the Great, making me able to scan and discern crap in atto seconds.

If you SAY and BELIEVE so.