Is morality objective or subjective?

[Lacewing]

Star Trek!? ..not sure how you came across that but I suppose it suits your comment!

It popped into my mind as a good visual for interactions on this forum.

[Lacewing]

Sociopaths don't care. The narcissists, especially the covert ones, don't want you to know. They can be trickier.

And an encounter with a psychopath is even 10 times crazier than that.

It's not even what they "do" or "don't do" that gets to me, I can deal with that. But what they are, and the implications of that. Such beings cannot exist in a benevolent world, therefore the world can't be benevolent.

This is all truly interesting! Yes, the implications of what some people 'are' is what I find creepy sometimes. I just don't encounter that anywhere else in my life. My personal radar knows how to avoid such energies, I guess. Or, I just don't attract that into my life. But on the internet, we can step into things we wouldn't encounter otherwise, even in a place as seemingly innocent as a philosophy forum.

[Atla]

Sociopaths don't care. The narcissists, especially the covert ones, don't want you to know. They can be trickier.

And an encounter with a psychopath is even 10 times crazier than that.

It's not even what they "do" or "don't do" that gets to me, I can deal with that. But what they are, and the implications of that. Such beings cannot exist in a benevolent world, therefore the world can't be benevolent.

This is all truly interesting! Yes, the implications of what some people 'are' is what I find creepy sometimes. I just don't encounter that anywhere else in my life. My personal radar knows how to avoid such energies, I guess. Or, I just don't attract that into my life. But on the internet, we can step into things we wouldn't encounter otherwise, even in a place as seemingly innocent as a philosophy forum.

Then it gets even worse, because are they even people, psychologically? Where do we draw the line between human and non-human? Many people who had encounters with sociopaths/NPDs/psychopaths come to the conclusion that they aren't "human". They lack exactly that which is the core thing of being human. But this is too politically incorrect so it's never said out loud.

[Lacewing]

This is all truly interesting! Yes, the implications of what some people 'are' is what I find creepy sometimes. I just don't encounter that anywhere else in my life. My personal radar knows how to avoid such energies, I guess. Or, I just don't attract that into my life. But on the internet, we can step into things we wouldn't encounter otherwise, even in a place as seemingly innocent as a philosophy forum.

Then it gets even worse, because are they even people, psychologically? Where do we draw the line between human and non-human? Many people who had encounters with sociopaths/NPDs/psychopaths come to the conclusion that they aren't "human". They lack exactly that which is the core thing of being human. But this is too politically incorrect so it's never said out loud.

I'm glad you're saying it out loud. At times, I too have wondered what I'm dealing with! Honestly, the discussions on this forum with some of the people who claim to have uniquely superior knowing about objective morality and God, appear (to me) to represent some of the darkest energy I've ever seen. I haven't known how else to describe it. It speaks of light while spreading darkness.

[Atla]

This is all truly interesting! Yes, the implications of what some people 'are' is what I find creepy sometimes. I just don't encounter that anywhere else in my life. My personal radar knows how to avoid such energies, I guess. Or, I just don't attract that into my life. But on the internet, we can step into things we wouldn't encounter otherwise, even in a place as seemingly innocent as a philosophy forum.

Then it gets even worse, because are they even people, psychologically? Where do we draw the line between human and non-human? Many people who had encounters with sociopaths/NPDs/psychopaths come to the conclusion that they aren't "human". They lack exactly that which is the core thing of being human. But this is too politically incorrect so it's never said out loud.

I'm glad you're saying it out loud. At times, I too have wondered what I'm dealing with! Honestly, the discussions on this forum with some of the people who claim to have uniquely superior knowing about objective morality and God, appear (to me) to represent some of the darkest energy I've ever seen. I haven't known how else to describe it. It speaks of light while spreading darkness.

This is also weird to me, did many of you guys somehow never really come into contact with religious people?

[Lacewing]

Then it gets even worse, because are they even people, psychologically? Where do we draw the line between human and non-human? Many people who had encounters with sociopaths/NPDs/psychopaths come to the conclusion that they aren't "human". They lack exactly that which is the core thing of being human. But this is too politically incorrect so it's never said out loud.

I'm glad you're saying it out loud. At times, I too have wondered what I'm dealing with! Honestly, the discussions on this forum with some of the people who claim to have uniquely superior knowing about objective morality and God, appear (to me) to represent some of the darkest energy I've ever seen. I haven't known how else to describe it. It speaks of light while spreading darkness.

This is also weird to me, did many of you guys somehow never really come into contact with religious people?

Well, I grew up immersed in Christianity. But everyone seemed kind and well-intentioned...even if gullible. I never encountered the calculating kind of theists like I've seen on this forum. The things that are said here take it to other extreme levels. Which have offered me even clearer insights into the manmade pathology of theism. It's so twisted it's fascinating! Man creating his own toxin to be addicted to! Is this to deaden awareness or escape personal accountability? Why so much fear? Why so much resistence?

[Lacewing]

It's some recent (not online) encounters with narcissists that really through me for a loop. I realized then that it wasn't the first time, and now I had a better understanding of the pattern so I could pick out others in the past.

Yes! We don't recognize (and could more easily be victims of) these behaviors and influences that are outside of our experience -- until we develop awareness and understanding of the characteristics and patterns, and then we can look back to see how we've been affected. I find it empowering to gain clarity about it -- but I'm shocked to realize how much of it there is!

[Iwannaplato]

It's some recent (not online) encounters with narcissists that really through me for a loop. I realized then that it wasn't the first time, and now I had a better understanding of the pattern so I could pick out others in the past.

Yes! We don't recognize (and could more easily be victims of) these behaviors and influences that are outside of our experience -- until we develop awareness and understanding of the characteristics and patterns, and then we can look back to see how we've been affected. I find it empowering to gain clarity about it -- but I'm shocked to realize how much of it there is!

I'm assuming you mean how much sociopathic and narcissistic behavior. If you, yes, I agree. We see it here also, in rather high percentages. I was at a meeting at work yesterday and two groups of workers we being merged and meeting the new supervisor. The supervisor asked the first time meeting in this way group,what language we should use. One person in the other group, clearly the leader of the other group said we will be using language X. My group was sort of stunned. I actually think it's not a bad solution, but hey, we're sitting right there. Maybe we should be asked and invited to voice an opinion.

As I look back over encounters with narcissists, the more overt ones with regularity and the covert ones when the poop finally comes out in an obvious way, I notice that I often went into confused shock. Something feels bad, but I don't quite understand it. The combination of feeling bad and confusion stuns me and I fail to do what I need to.

I realized that essentially I was afraid to just trust my gut. What you are doing now feels wrong. I'm not sure what is going on, but I trust that reaction. So, what are you doing?

I'm not saying I should have said all of that. Actually I think 'what are you doing?' alone would probably have been good in many of these situations. But I needed to fully trust my gut, even though I couldn't figure it all out.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I was amazed when he revealed his true character to me, that he would do whatever it would take to get ahead IF there wasn't a God.

Yes, that was rather surprising! I guess that's why he has to be so fanatical about it: tethering the beast within. No wonder he mistakenly imagines everyone else being the same way!

Most people on this forum (not just you two, but almost everyone here) must have lived VERY lucky lives, that they can't spot a sociopath, and are amazed / surprised / perplex / curious etc. when they encounter one.

Not sure if I can go along with the “mental illness” or “personality defect” diagnosis. If one starts on that road half of you will be committed by noon tomorrow.

However, it is “par for the course” in the contemporary world. Those who don’t share our perspectives must surely be sick!

A safer psychological strategy is to recognize that, for many reasons and through many causes, all people, including ourselves, show sociopathic traits from time to time.

To describe people — to see people — who orient their view of life through a religious lens as pathological seems suspect from where I sit.

[attofishpi]

Yes, I agree. I think everyone is going a bit hard on the chap in question, over diagnosis!

[Alexis Jacobi]

Then it gets even worse, because are they even people, psychologically? Where do we draw the line between human and non-human? Many people who had encounters with sociopaths/NPDs/psychopaths come to the conclusion that they aren't "human". They lack exactly that which is the core thing of being human. But this is too politically incorrect so it's never said out loud.

Hardly can they be considered people. You really nailed that one. If not persons — then what?! It can keep someone awake at night.

I for one am all for overcoming the restraints of political correctness. Time for action!

[Lacewing]

...

You've brought up some points that I've thought about too.

As I look back over encounters with narcissists, the more overt ones with regularity and the covert ones when the poop finally comes out in an obvious way, I notice that I often went into confused shock. Something feels bad, but I don't quite understand it. The combination of feeling bad and confusion stuns me and I fail to do what I need to.

Yes, it is hard to believe some outrageous behaviors at times. We may think that we're not seeing it correctly, or we may want to give the other person the benefit of the doubt: 'Surely they can't be that whacked out or demented.' But (I think) narcissists have actually learned how to control others (and situations) by preying on the unassuming confusion. They are intelligent enough to have learned that most people won't speak up, for whatever reasons -- so they go forth with 'confidence' in serving and imposing their narcissism. They usually won't be questioned because it's so outrageous that most people will be stunned into submission.

If someone presents opposition, the narcissist may make it seem like the opposition is totally off-base: 'How could the opposition even think such a thing?' It's really very twisted, and leaves honest people scratching their heads.

My question is, does the narcissist know what they are? They are surely aware that they play games, and are dishonest at times, but they may think it's justified. However, if they're smart enough to do all of that, how can they lack so much self-awareness -- and how stupid do they foolishly think everyone else is?

I realized that essentially I was afraid to just trust my gut.

I think humankind may be evolving to better recognize and deal with these twisted and dishonest 'players' and circumstances -- and to play these games better. It seems that more of us can call these things out more boldly, such as: 'That's not true', 'That doesn't make sense', 'You don't know', and the one you suggested 'What are you doing?', etc. It helps to practice -- that's what this forum allows me to do.

In most people I see in person, people respect reason and honesty, and we're not trying to manipulate each other. If I do encounter someone like the tricky salesman who was selling me a car, his games are lame and obvious, and I laughed and told him that he was putting on a good show. I saw that he was stunned that he didn't have convincing control (especially over an unassuming-looking female), but he carried on as if he didn't know how else to operate... and I kept laughing and I 'won' that duel. I stunned him, rather than him stunning me.

These experiences can be fascinating to witness and practice with. Self-awareness seems to be an essential quality in dealing with all sort of things. People who are operating on intoxicated auto-pilot are easy to recognize as such.

[Atla]

Yes, that was rather surprising! I guess that's why he has to be so fanatical about it: tethering the beast within. No wonder he mistakenly imagines everyone else being the same way!

Most people on this forum (not just you two, but almost everyone here) must have lived VERY lucky lives, that they can't spot a sociopath, and are amazed / surprised / perplex / curious etc. when they encounter one.

Not sure if I can go along with the “mental illness” or “personality defect” diagnosis. If one starts on that road half of you will be committed by noon tomorrow.

However, it is “par for the course” in the contemporary world. Those who don’t share our perspectives must surely be sick!

A safer psychological strategy is to recognize that, for many reasons and through many causes, all people, including ourselves, show sociopathic traits from time to time.

To describe people — to see people — who orient their view of life through a religious lens as pathological seems suspect from where I sit.

'Safer' strategy for what? One of the reasons this world will probably be destroyed in this century is that humanity never learned to deal with people without conscience.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I wish to dedicate this post to our own Iambiguous and in the hope that Glorious Isis will round up all the pieces of his scattered and fractured Self and mend them all back together.

Yes, I agree. I think everyone is going a bit hard on the chap in question, over-diagnosis!

The issue at play is really different. It is hard to state it plainly but I will make the effort. Unfortunately I will have to name names but doing so I do not mean to rouse conflict but, as I always say, to try to get closer to a position of *understanding*. We are living now in a maddened present. And not only can we observe maddened individuals acting madly, but we too are part of the same problem. And what is that problem? It arises, I am coming to understand, from the breakdown in agreements -- metaphysical agreements. I see it as Nietzsche explained it: the erasure of the *horizon* in which man lived. That is to say in a *world* that made sense and with a philosophical, religious and existential outlook that made sense to him, that he could *believe in*.

Waldo Frank wrote about the *dying body of Europe* in this sense and he meant the psychic body. When the certainties were erased, when everything was turned upside-down, man lost his bearings, and when a man loses his bearings he begins to lose himself. I think that Iambiguous expresses and also exemplifies this *condition*. That is, of being fractured and in a dissolving state. Obviously this is a condition of nihilistic postmodernism and we are all *outcomes* of these processes.

That means that we are living in a diseased condition. Turning back to Waldo Frank he proposed that in a dying body -- he referred to inanition, suffering a lack of nourishment -- that the dying or dead body is anything but inactive. In fact it lights up with all sorts of processes related to decay. Each cell (a metaphor of an atomized person, soul or self) still contains life vitality, but is separated now from the holistic body that once contained him. Separated from his relationship to a whole and to shared, agreed-upon life-processes. I was struck by the power of the metaphor when I first read it.

I propose that every *dying* self in our strange present, struggles with semi-conscious knowledge of his moribund condition. Even if you are dying you still have to carry on as if you are not, and as if life goes on. One will tend to normalize the condition or try to become comfortable within it. What other choice do we have? We can understand this from many different angles. For example nationally. Here I speak of America but I believe similar processes go on everywhere. The glue that binds the social and cultural body begins to come undone. There is evident a strange, pained hysteria as maddened people who do not understand what is happening to them, act out their madness as social-emotional rehearsals. It is like a troubled teenager who acts out an internal conflict by self-cutting. I will only make the allusion to a condition of soul sickness. You will get what I mean or perhaps you won't. But it seems clear to me.

With the loss of metaphysical ground, and the rise of unconsciously lived nihilistic response, people strive for neurotic *solutions*. But there are no solutions. Because the larger holistic body is in a moribund process. How can one realize that, responsibly, and somehow avoid being one of those who act it out as if in a living existential theatre?

There are two people who write here and who are deeply involved in this *conversation* that I can mention here to some advantage: Immanuel Can and Lacewing. I can include others, and I could also include myself since I am, as we all are, deeply involved in this *problem*. But for the sake of my point I will refer to these two. They are locked in spiritual and intellectual struggle. They are in a *fight* and a conflict and seem not to be able to arrive at am *agreement*. Why is this? Ostensibly, it appears that Lacewing is in acute rebellion against her own Christian formation in some sort of evangelical Christian community. It constrained her; it did her harm; it stunted growth; and she had to transcend its limiting influence.

Immanuel on the other hand remains ensconced within that structure out of which Lacewing had to break free of. Not only can Immanuel not understand Lacewing's *jail-break* (as it were) he is involved in a cultural and religious movement that seeks to *restore* man's relationship to those ideals and ethics, borne of religious philosophy, that deeply informs Europe. It is, for him, a life-and-death issue and a stark choice. One either aligns oneself with the *current* (so to speak) that is life itself -- Jesus Christ as the *cup* the *spring* and *the living water* -- or one sets oneself on a path of death. These ideas are deeply interwoven with religious and metaphysical symbolism or, if you will, a sort of spiritual science.

What I try to do -- standing as *witness* to the personal conflict that in fact expresses a far larger and wider ideological and metaphysical conflict -- is to present a way of seeing the essential struggle in somewhat different terms. For that reason -- and perhaps stupidly (?) -- through a reference to the Platonic Cave. So in this model Lacewing and Immanuel are down there is a *pit* where vision is impaired and where all these personal issues intrude and complicate the conflict. They believe that they are in profound and irreconcilable conflict. And perhaps if we see their struggle applied to the *outside world*, perhaps we have no choice but to entertain the idea of *irreconcilable differences*.

Personally, I have resolved a great deal of the conflict and contradiction in everything we have been discussing as religious and Christian by a sort of intellectual manoeuvre of *ascent* to a level or layer above the fray. I suggest that that gives me a vantage and an advantage that both Lacewing and Immanuel cannot seem to attain. Immanuel because he is locked into a *absolutist* position, and oddly Lacewing because she too, in her strange way, holds to a contrarian absolutism.

[Iwannaplato]

Not sure if I can go along with the “mental illness” or “personality defect” diagnosis. If one starts on that road half of you will be committed by noon tomorrow.

However, it is “par for the course” in the contemporary world. Those who don’t share our perspectives must surely be sick!

A safer psychological strategy is to recognize that, for many reasons and through many causes, all people, including ourselves, show sociopathic traits from time to time.

To describe people — to see people — who orient their view of life through a religious lens as pathological seems suspect from where I sit.

Here we are dealing with people with their backs to the wall, in a very specific type of context: worldviews. People's identities and core sense of the world would be challenged if they admitted they were wrong. I mean, it doesn't have to be that way, but I think for most people, there are beliefs that if they even slightly began to questions them, the pain of cognitive dissonance and fears of loss of control and permanent confusion, turn them into discussion-partner sociopaths and narcissists.

They may be quite kind to suffering people and good listeners and avoid trampling people etc.

Here they can also present themselves as certain. They can hide their doubt and no one can see it in their facial expressions, nervous hand movements and tone of voice. It allows the person of resentment, the underground men (and a lesser number of women) to finally come off like gangster philosophers.