The thoughts of Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Atla]

As much as the main non-dualist paths are not for me, there are non-dualists who actually put in the practices and wouldn't find themselves snarling and other non-dualists (or anyone) online. It's funny to watch some flip from the oneness and the I am etc. to threads where they are spitting on others, categorizing them and very clearly disidentifying with them. Making them a big THEM.

And then doing something similar here in this thread. Others, in this thread, do manage to not engage in these active disidentifications and us/them snarling. It's not everyone.

And I expect some Vedantic-ish justification presenting themselves as fortunate warriors, or butchers, just doing their thing while non-dualism reigns.

LOL

My view is that nondualism sort of has two awakenings, and most nondualists either never make it to the first one (so they entirely remain pseudo-"nondualists", they use the words but have no idea what they actually mean). Or they make it to the first one, but not the second one, they get stuck
in limbo between the two.

The first awakening, the big one, is when we realize the nondual nature of our existence. Some bright people can simply be told what our nondual nature is and they wake up, some others wake up due to unusual circumstances for example near-death experiences and psychoses, or by studying science or mathemathics etc. But the majority needs to "practice" the dismantling of the "I".

My opinion: if you have to "practice" taking yourself apart, then just don't bother with the whole awakening thing. It's not worth it and probably not for you.

The second awakening, the small one, is when after realizing the nondual nature of existence, we re-integrate ourselves into the dualistic world of human society. We re-build our dualistic "I" and go back to it.

I think I've seen one guy on this forum who has done the whole course, but he's no longer active. The others, who are currently here and identify as nondualists, are either pseudo-nondualists or stuck in limbo between the two awakenings.

[Harbal]

My view is that nondualism sort of has two awakenings,

A sort of dual awakening, then?

[Atla]

My view is that nondualism sort of has two awakenings,

A sort of dual awakening, then?

no

[Iwannaplato]

As much as the main non-dualist paths are not for me, there are non-dualists who actually put in the practices and wouldn't find themselves snarling and other non-dualists (or anyone) online. It's funny to watch some flip from the oneness and the I am etc. to threads where they are spitting on others, categorizing them and very clearly disidentifying with them. Making them a big THEM.

And then doing something similar here in this thread. Others, in this thread, do manage to not engage in these active disidentifications and us/them snarling. It's not everyone.

And I expect some Vedantic-ish justification presenting themselves as fortunate warriors, or butchers, just doing their thing while non-dualism reigns.

LOL

My view is that nondualism sort of has two awakenings, and most nondualists either never make it to the first one (so they entirely remain pseudo-"nondualists", they use the words but have no idea what they actually mean). Or they make it to the first one, but not the second one, they get stuck
in limbo between the two.

The first awakening, the big one, is when we realize the nondual nature of our existence. Some bright people can simply be told what our nondual nature is and they wake up, some others wake up due to unusual circumstances for example near-death experiences and psychoses, or by studying science or mathemathics etc. But the majority needs to "practice" the dismantling of the "I".

My opinion: if you have to "practice" taking yourself apart, then just don't bother with the whole awakening thing. It's not worth it and probably not for you.

The second awakening, the small one, is when after realizing the nondual nature of existence, we re-integrate ourselves into the dualistic world of human society. We re-build our dualistic "I" and go back to it.

I think I've seen one guy on this forum who has done the whole course, but he's no longer active. The others, who are currently here and identify as nondualists, are either pseudo-nondualists or stuck in limbo between the two awakenings.

Could all be the case. I just see people with an idea they think is cool and who perhaps even had an epiphany, but where the idea/momentary transcendence hasn't affected the way the relate to or think of or experience others. They're running around spouting dualist judgments/UsThem nastiness. They so clearly have high opinions of themselves and hard as rock egos and have great distaste for at least half of their fellow humans who are clearly not them. They're as non-dualist as the runner up beauty queen who knocks the winner off the stage.

[Atla]

Could all be the case. I just see people with an idea they think is cool and who perhaps even had an epiphany, but where the idea/momentary transcendence hasn't affected the way the relate to or think of or experience others. They're running around spouting dualist judgments/UsThem nastiness. They so clearly have high opinions of themselves and hard as rock egos and have great distaste for at least half of their fellow humans who are clearly not them. They're as non-dualist as the runner up beauty queen who knocks the winner off the stage.

Let's clear up something first:
- ego, as in the Western ego, as in being egoistic, having an egoistic psychology, and
- ego, as in the Eastern ego, as in the "I", as in the encapsulated self, our standard Western sense of self
are two different things, two different aspects, two different psychological dimensions.

Nondualism deals with the latter. Even the biggest, most egoistic jackass can "awaken", and he will often remain the biggest, most egoistic jackass after that.

[Harbal]

My view is that nondualism sort of has two awakenings,

A sort of dual awakening, then?

no

Okay.

[Iwannaplato]

Could all be the case. I just see people with an idea they think is cool and who perhaps even had an epiphany, but where the idea/momentary transcendence hasn't affected the way the relate to or think of or experience others. They're running around spouting dualist judgments/UsThem nastiness. They so clearly have high opinions of themselves and hard as rock egos and have great distaste for at least half of their fellow humans who are clearly not them. They're as non-dualist as the runner up beauty queen who knocks the winner off the stage.

Let's clear up something first:
- ego, as in the Western ego, as in being egoistic, having an egoistic psychology, and
- ego, as in the Eastern ego, as in the "I", as in the encapsulated self, our standard Western sense of self
are two different things, two different aspects, two different psychological dimensions.

Nondualism deals with the latter. Even the biggest, most egoistic jackass can "awaken", and he will often remain the biggest, most egoistic jackass after that.

Yes, but as I said in my original post, they are actively dis-identifying with others. There is the me and the other. The other is bad, I am not involved in that. Liberals sick and toxic, me and the conservatives (I respect) are fine. The former are destroying things, the latter are trying to keep the good. There's not a shred of Tatvamasi (relevantly I Am That for the guru 'honored' by the thread) in this. Yes, I used the word nasty, but it's not the negativeness that goes against what old Nisargadatta Maharaj would have said, it's the divisions. It's the utter embroilment in Maya which the liberals and conservatives are both part of in some great dance of Brahma, etc. I mean the other irony is that some of these people would find Nisargadatta Maharaj's views on freedom, service (with all the class implications dragged into the spritual realm), doing as he says and not as he does, just a tad against their political and tempermental beliefs which they'll argue from elsewhere.

The ironies are all over this. For example....

For Maharaj, our only "problem" (an imagined one!) is a case of mistaken identity: we presume to be an individual,

So, a funny guru for extreme individualists in all mundane and ontological meanings of that word.

And while the main area non-dualism focuses on is the subject object there is the denial of pairs of opposites, that some here are rather addicted to.

But I certainly agree that extremely experienced meditators and masters can be dicks. In the oneness they suddenly decide to sexually abuse their devotees. Because meditation and non-dualism cannot get at all sorts of pathologies. It can be part of healing these, since one may notice things more. But generally it's not the right approach (alone) to get at that stuff.

I doubt however there is much mastery here.

[Atla]

Could all be the case. I just see people with an idea they think is cool and who perhaps even had an epiphany, but where the idea/momentary transcendence hasn't affected the way the relate to or think of or experience others. They're running around spouting dualist judgments/UsThem nastiness. They so clearly have high opinions of themselves and hard as rock egos and have great distaste for at least half of their fellow humans who are clearly not them. They're as non-dualist as the runner up beauty queen who knocks the winner off the stage.

Let's clear up something first:
- ego, as in the Western ego, as in being egoistic, having an egoistic psychology, and
- ego, as in the Eastern ego, as in the "I", as in the encapsulated self, our standard Western sense of self
are two different things, two different aspects, two different psychological dimensions.

Nondualism deals with the latter. Even the biggest, most egoistic jackass can "awaken", and he will often remain the biggest, most egoistic jackass after that.

Yes, but as I said in my original post, they are actively dis-identifying with others. There is the me and the other. The other is bad, I am not involved in that. Liberals sick and toxic, me and the conservatives (I respect) are fine. The former are destroying things, the latter are trying to keep the good. There's not a shred of Tatvamasi (relevantly I Am That for the guru 'honored' by the thread) in this. Yes, I used the word nasty, but it's not the negativeness that goes against what old Nisargadatta Maharaj would have said, it's the divisions. It's the utter embroilment in Maya which the liberals and conservatives are both part of in some great dance of Brahma, etc. I mean the other irony is that some of these people would find Nisargadatta Maharaj's views on freedom, service (with all the class implications dragged into the spritual realm), doing as he says and not as he does, just a tad against their political and tempermental beliefs which they'll argue from elsewhere.

The ironies are all over this. For example....

For Maharaj, our only "problem" (an imagined one!) is a case of mistaken identity: we presume to be an individual,

So, a funny guru for extreme individualists in all mundane and ontological meanings of that word.

And while the main area non-dualism focuses on is the subject object there is the denial of pairs of opposites, that some here are rather addicted to.

But I certainly agree that extremely experienced meditators and masters can be dicks. In the oneness they suddenly decide to sexually abuse their devotees. Because meditation and non-dualism cannot get at all sorts of pathologies. It can be part of healing these, since one may notice things more. But generally it's not the right approach (alone) to get at that stuff.

I doubt however there is much mastery here.

I don't know how to reply. Advaita is a positive expression of nondualism, but beyond that, it's generally bullshit. For the "rest", I'd rather turn to Zen Buddhism.

Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with bliss, happiness, being kind/good/nice.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with oneness.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with judging or not judging others.

[Iwannaplato]

I don't know how to reply. Advaita is a positive expression of nondualism, but beyond that, it's generally bullshit. For the "rest", I'd rather turn to Zen Buddhism.

Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with bliss, happiness, being kind/good/nice.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with oneness.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with judging or not judging others.

Fine though this thread is in the context of a guru and in Walker's case, for example, some dabbling in Hindu versions of non-dualism.

And someone running around actively babbling about how some other groups are ruining things, dis-identifying with them, seeing things in us them terms, judging others with great regularity is going to get some serious raps on the head by master's keisaku and then finally be asked to leave the temple. In Western Temples, probably no keisaku will be used, just shunning.

Further Zen Buddhism also has concepts of Oneness and seeing everything as having common roots, and this awareness leading to compassion.

Of course there are many interpretations even in one tradition of Buddhism, such as Zen. But Google Oneness and Zen or judging others and Zen and I can't see how the behavior I was reacting to fits with this.

In fact I think Zen Buddhism has even more distaste for this kind of behavior and the us/them dualistic that's not me attitude than Hinduism. Because in Hinduism there is to some degree this idea, at least, again, in some takes on it, of being able to even be a thief or a killer as long as one is immersed in God.

In Zen the running of the mouth alone, let alone all the implicit non-----non-dualism in these people's attitudes, is anathema.

[Atla]

I don't know how to reply. Advaita is a positive expression of nondualism, but beyond that, it's generally bullshit. For the "rest", I'd rather turn to Zen Buddhism.

Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with bliss, happiness, being kind/good/nice.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with oneness.
Nondualism has fundamentally nothing to do with judging or not judging others.

Fine though this thread is in the context of a guru and in Walker's case, for example, some dabbling in Hindu versions of non-dualism.

And someone running around actively babbling about how some other groups are ruining things, dis-identifying with them, seeing things in us them terms, judging others with great regularity is going to get some serious raps on the head by master's keisaku and then finally be asked to leave the temple. In Western Temples, probably no keisaku will be used, just shunning.

Further Zen Buddhism also has concepts of Oneness and seeing everything as having common roots, and this awareness leading to compassion.

Of course there are many interpretations even in one tradition of Buddhism, such as Zen. But Google Oneness and Zen or judging others and Zen and I can't see how the behavior I was reacting to fits with this.

In fact I think Zen Buddhism has even more distaste for this kind of behavior and the us/them dualistic that's not me attitude than Hinduism. Because in Hinduism there is to some degree this idea, at least, again, in some takes on it, of being able to even be a thief or a killer as long as one is immersed in God.

In Zen the running of the mouth alone, let alone all the implicit non-----non-dualism in these people's attitudes, is anathema.

I don't read Walker's comments. At least when he was Nick's sidekick, he was a little amusing, but now that he's on his own, he's just depressing.
One thing is clear though, he has no idea what nondualism actually is.

[Iwannaplato]

I don't read Walker's comments. At least when he was Nick's sidekick, he was a little amusing, but now that he's on his own, he's just depressing.
One thing is clear though, he has no idea what nondualism actually is.

Quite possible. People often fall in love with ideas and/or the mere sound of them.

[Harbal]

I don't read Walker's comments.

I don't think Walker reads them, either; he wouldn't post them if he did.

[Atla]

I don't read Walker's comments. At least when he was Nick's sidekick, he was a little amusing, but now that he's on his own, he's just depressing.
One thing is clear though, he has no idea what nondualism actually is.

Quite possible. People often fall in love with ideas and/or the mere sound of them.

Umm I think Nick_A was a Christian gnostic nondualist or something like that, and Walker was his sidekick. But Christian gnostic nondualism and Eastern "pure" nondualism have very little in common.

[Atla]

I don't read Walker's comments.

I don't think Walker reads them, either; he wouldn't post them if he did.

[Iwannaplato]

I don't read Walker's comments. At least when he was Nick's sidekick, he was a little amusing, but now that he's on his own, he's just depressing.
One thing is clear though, he has no idea what nondualism actually is.

Quite possible. People often fall in love with ideas and/or the mere sound of them.

Umm I think Nick_A was a Christian gnostic nondualist or something like that, and Walker was his sidekick. But Christian gnostic nondualism and Eastern "pure" nondualism have very little in common.

Well, Walker was incredibly deferrential to the real life in India head of ashram Guru that trolled here for a year or so. Praising his wisdom. So, perhaps he doesn't know the difference.