Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

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Veritas Aequitas
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Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Deniers of Moral Objectivity based their claim on the point that there are no objective moral facts i.e. moral elements do not exist as objective reality.

Here is a clue from ChatGpt [with reservations] leading to the point that
Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality.

"Objective Reality" in this case is on the basis of Philosophical Realism;
  • Philosophical Realism .. – is the view that a certain kind of thing has mind-independent existence, i.e. that it exists even in the absence of any mind perceiving it or that its existence is not just a mere appearance in the eye of the beholder. WIKI

"Philosophical Realism" is an oxymoron because there is nothing realistic in it except illusions.

The effective basis of Objectivity is that of the FSK-ed Objectivity.
There are Two Senses of 'Objectivity'
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39326
Anon wrote:Question: On a scale of 1 to 10 from least rational to most rational, could you rate how rational the idea is that objective reality doesn't exist?
ChatGPT wrote:The idea that objective reality doesn't exist is a complex philosophical concept that has been debated for centuries. It's important to note that the assessment of rationality can vary among individuals and within different philosophical frameworks. Here's a general perspective:

From a philosophical standpoint, the idea that objective reality doesn't exist is often discussed within the context of solipsism, idealism, or various forms of anti-realism. These positions argue that reality is either entirely mental or constructed in some way, and they often lack empirical evidence to support their claims. From this perspective, it might be considered less rational. Let's rate it as 2 on the scale.

However, it's essential to recognize that philosophy is a discipline that frequently explores ideas at the fringes of rationality. Some philosophers have developed sophisticated arguments for these positions, even if they are not widely accepted. In this sense, the rationality of the idea can be higher in the context of philosophical discourse. Let's rate it as 5 in this context.

From a scientific and empirical standpoint, the idea that objective reality doesn't exist is generally considered less rational. Scientific methodologies rely on the assumption that there is an objective reality that can be studied and understood through empirical observation and evidence. Most scientific endeavors would be challenging or impossible without this foundational assumption. Therefore, in a scientific context, this idea might be rated quite low, perhaps around 2 on the scale.

It's important to acknowledge that debates about the nature of reality and the limits of human perception continue, and different philosophical and scientific perspectives exist. People's views on this idea may vary widely, and it's subject to ongoing discussion and debate. In some contexts, it might be rated higher on the rationality scale due to the complexity of the arguments and the richness of the philosophical discourse. Let's rate it as 4 in this context.

In summary, the rationality of the idea that objective reality doesn't exist depends on the context and perspective from which it is considered. It's a concept that spans the spectrum from less rational to more rational, and the rating can vary among individuals and disciplines.
ChatGpt: "From a philosophical standpoint, the idea that objective reality doesn't exist is often discussed within the context of solipsism, idealism, or various forms of anti-realism. These positions argue that reality is either entirely mental or constructed in some way, and they often lack empirical evidence to support their claims. From this perspective, it might be considered less rational. Let's rate it as 2 on the scale."

Because ChatGpt lumped up all the various anti-realism and idealism, it gave a rating of 2 on the scale of rationality.

In the case of philosophical_realism [objective reality is absolutely mind-independent and real], from a ANTI-philosophical realists' the rationality would be rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes: KIV
Iwannaplato
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:46 am Because ChatGpt lumped up all the various anti-realism and idealism, it gave a rating of 2 on the scale of rationality.
In the case of philosophical_realism [objective reality is absolutely mind-independent and real], from a ANTI-philosophical realists' the rationality would be rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion.
Just to double check. Most of your post was quoting Chatgpt. Then this last part is just you asserting that philosophical realism is a 0.

My view would be that this is a very strange OP. You use Chatgpt, which rates the family of positions your position is a member of very low. At 2.

You explain why we should ignore the result. (thought why include it at all?)

Then you assert that philosophical realism is a 0 with no justification.

That's an odd OP with an odd title. Objective reality has 0 rationality. Perhaps you mean the belief in...... or 'The arguments for....
Skepdick
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:02 am Then you assert that philosophical realism is a 0 with no justification.
What's a sufficient or acceptable justification?
Does the justification require justification?
Does the justification of the justification require justification?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma
In epistemology, the Münchhausen trilemma is a thought experiment intended to demonstrate the theoretical impossibility of proving any truth, even in the fields of logic and mathematics, without appealing to accepted assumptions. If it is asked how any given proposition is known to be true, proof in support of that proposition may be provided. Yet that same question can be asked of that supporting proof, and any subsequent supporting proof. The Münchhausen trilemma is that there are only three ways of completing a proof:

The circular argument, in which the proof of some proposition presupposes the truth of that very proposition
The regressive argument, in which each proof requires a further proof, ad infinitum
The dogmatic argument, which rests on accepted precepts which are merely asserted rather than defended
Justify skepticism.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:02 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:46 am Because ChatGpt lumped up all the various anti-realism and idealism, it gave a rating of 2 on the scale of rationality.
In the case of philosophical_realism [objective reality is absolutely mind-independent and real], from a ANTI-philosophical realists' the rationality would be rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion.
Just to double check. Most of your post was quoting Chatgpt. Then this last part is just you asserting that philosophical realism is a 0.

My view would be that this is a very strange OP. You use Chatgpt, which rates the family of positions your position is a member of very low. At 2.

You explain why we should ignore the result. (thought why include it at all?)

Then you assert that philosophical realism is a 0 with no justification.

That's an odd OP with an odd title. Objective reality has 0 rationality. Perhaps you mean the belief in...... or 'The arguments for....
Ignorance again.
Btw, are you diagnosed within somewhere along the autistic spectrum? i.e. the inability to tune in with the minds of others, thus being very pedantic with everything point.

I defined what is "philosophical_realism' from WIKI.
This is obviously a belief, view or stance.

I explained and stated in the OP why O [zero];
"In the case of philosophical_realism [objective reality is absolutely mind-independent and real], from a ANTI-philosophical realists' the rationality would be rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion."

As stated I had always qualified ChatGpt [with reservations] which I meant I do not always agree with ChatGpt which should be the case.
Atla
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:46 am rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion.
VA's self-serving ratings are neat, but what about rating-proper?
Atla the Gnat wrote:On a scale of 1 to 10 from least rational to most rational, could you rate how rational the idea is that philosophical realism can't be true because it's only based on illusions?
ChatGPT wrote:Rating the rationality of an idea is subjective, but I can offer a general assessment. The idea that philosophical realism can't be true because it's based on illusions might be rated as a 3 or 4 on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the least rational and 10 being the most rational. This is because it oversimplifies a complex philosophical debate. Philosophical realism is a position that maintains that there is an objective reality that exists independently of human perception, and it's a viewpoint that has been debated for centuries. While illusions and perception are factors that philosophers consider, they don't necessarily invalidate philosophical realism outright. It's a more nuanced discussion that requires a deeper exploration of philosophical arguments and counterarguments.
See? Rating-proper properly tells us the answer-proper.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 1:32 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:46 am rated at 0 [Zero], because philosophical realism is grounded on an illusion.
VA's self-serving ratings are neat, but what about rating-proper?
In addition to what you said, he's using realism in his assessement. He's certainly not basing it on intersubjectivity which is what he says objectivity is - since in both the world population AND amongst scientists, the majority are realists.

And, yes, jeez, his philosophical opinion - and one not held by a majority of physicists, who might just be better at the physics FSK than VA - becomes a giving a rating of 0 to the other opinion.

Of course, this does not mean he is wrong about his position. I think the majority of experts can be mistaken. But given what he thinks objectivity is, and given what the experts in his highest rated FSK believe, he's just going against his statements and making up self-serving numbers.
Atla
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:02 am Just to double check. Most of your post was quoting Chatgpt. Then this last part is just you asserting that philosophical realism is a 0.

My view would be that this is a very strange OP. You use Chatgpt, which rates the family of positions your position is a member of very low. At 2.

You explain why we should ignore the result. (thought why include it at all?)

Then you assert that philosophical realism is a 0 with no justification.

That's an odd OP with an odd title. Objective reality has 0 rationality. Perhaps you mean the belief in...... or 'The arguments for....
I wonder, can one feel betrayed by a chatbot? What must VA be going through right now?
Iwannaplato
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:16 pm I wonder, can one feel betrayed by a chatbot? What must VA be going through right now?
Whatever it is, he's navigated it hundreds of times. The number of links he used for supporting his position or attacking someone else's position which ended up contradicting his opinions and often at the very least going against his extreme binary thinking - anyone who disagrees is a philosophical gnat - has been impressive for a while. And Chatgpt does not in general agree with his positions. It doesn't deny their possibility, but it generally rates them as less likely than the positions he insults people for having. And this also has been pointed out time and again.

And as far as the empirical VA, the VA we experience through words on a screen, none of this has made the slightest difference.

The unexperienced, non-empirical VA, the VA an sich, somewhere out there....we can't know if it exists or what effects all this has.
Atla
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:22 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:16 pm I wonder, can one feel betrayed by a chatbot? What must VA be going through right now?
Whatever it is, he's navigated it hundreds of times. The number of links he used for supporting his position or attacking someone else's position which ended up contradicting his opinions and often at the very least going against his extreme binary thinking - anyone who disagrees is a philosophical gnat - has been impressive for a while. And Chatgpt does not in general agree with his positions. It doesn't deny their possibility, but it generally rates them as less likely than the positions he insults people for having. And this also has been pointed out time and again.

And as far as the empirical VA, the VA we experience through words on a screen, none of this has made the slightest difference.

The unexperienced, non-empirical VA, the VA an sich, somewhere out there....we can't know if it exists or what effects all this has.
I never found VA's arguments remotely impressive, I only find it impressive how much time he spends on this. At least he has dedication.
Only gnats like VA and IC play the game of denying the possibility of their opponent's positions. Incidentally, I think I could make a more compelling argument for anti-realism than VA, I just think that it would mostly be a bad guess.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:31 pm I never found VA's arguments remotely impressive, I only find it impressive how much time he spends on this. At least he has dedication.
Only gnats like VA and IC play the game of denying the possibility of their opponent's positions. Incidentally, I think I could make a more compelling argument for anti-realism than VA, I just think that it would mostly be a bad guess.
I agree about his arguments. I do like the issues he brings up and a decent number of his links. I also enjoy the whole Chatgpt thing. :D
Funny I just had a couple of interchanges with IC. I think he's a better sophist than VA. He twists things more cleverly, but neither one responds directly to the arguments other make. They seems sort of reminded of things. Must be enviably cozy.
Atla
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:43 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 4:31 pm I never found VA's arguments remotely impressive, I only find it impressive how much time he spends on this. At least he has dedication.
Only gnats like VA and IC play the game of denying the possibility of their opponent's positions. Incidentally, I think I could make a more compelling argument for anti-realism than VA, I just think that it would mostly be a bad guess.
I agree about his arguments. I do like the issues he brings up and a decent number of his links. I also enjoy the whole Chatgpt thing. :D
Funny I just had a couple of interchanges with IC. I think he's a better sophist than VA. He twists things more cleverly, but neither one responds directly to the arguments other make. They seems sort of reminded of things. Must be enviably cozy.
Hmm cozy? But it's not all gold that glitters. It's not worth it. VA has no friends and IC cannot even experience any empathetic interpersonal human emotions at all. Maybe VA can't do it all that much either.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

When posters resort to ad hominem, it is indicative they don't have any effective counters to the arguments on hand.

Btw, I have stated many times, my participation in this particular forum is for my own very personal and selfish interests in refreshing the knowledge from my database and my projects.
I don't give a damn on the personal opinions others have on my views.
Atla
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 3:38 am When posters resort to ad hominem, it is indicative they don't have any effective counters to the arguments on hand.

Btw, I have stated many times, my participation in this particular forum is for my own very personal and selfish interests in refreshing the knowledge from my database and my projects.
I don't give a damn on the personal opinions others have on my views.
Your arguments are thoroughly refuted. Even by ChatGPT. :) The only question left is why you stick to such ridiculous arguments, so we look at where they are coming from.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Objective Reality has 0 (Zero) Rationality & Objectivity

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:55 pm Hmm cozy? But it's not all gold that glitters.
I'm not saying it's better, but cozy. If he wants an answer, he knows where to go to get it, period. End of mulling. And since he interprets this as God, it really doesn't matter what anyone says. Of course this is his presentation here. He may well go off annoyed and have doubts, etc. But I think there is likely a seed of coziness there that you and I might not have and that's part of the appeal.
It's not worth it. VA has no friends and IC cannot even experience any empathetic interpersonal human emotions at all. Maybe VA can't do it all that much either.
I don't know how to judge such things online. I mean, I get reactions like you have here, but who knows. People have the opportunity here, since they can hide their mixed feelings, surprise, hurt, doubt and so on so easily, to be quite unfeeling. And both of those guys judge emotions a lot, at least officially. (not that they may have thought this through, but it's part of both of their insult patterns)

VA reminds me of Notes from the Underground, the main character.
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