Averroes wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:49 pm
I'd love to think you mean that. And I'd love to think we could do it. But there are two factors
from Islam that make it impossible for me to believe that.
I find it amazing that all this time you had no trouble discussing with me but suddenly after my last post only, you are finding it impossible to discuss with me! What happened?? Anyway, let’s address those factors that suddenly arose and are causing you so much trouble if God wills.
It's not such a marvel. If I can't know that you are speaking truth, then I can still speak truth myself, should I have the chance. I just have no way of knowing if I can hear you, because of
taqiyya. So this Islamic principle makes conversation impossible...but does not impinge on my ability to speak truth, since I am not a believer in
taquiyya, obviously.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:49 pm
In Mathew 19 :4-9, biblical Jesus abrogates divorce.
He does not, actually. If you read it, you'll notice that he
affirms divorce, but says it's a provision made for man, and not reflective of God's ideal. So that's no case of "abrogation."
2. You believe that Jesus died on the cross. According to Deuteronomy 21:22-23...if this verse is not abrogated, then biblical Jesus is cursed by God![/quote]
Also not a case of "abrogation." For in the New Testament, it explains that God's very purpose was that the curse of mankind should be placed on God's Son, so that man might be forgiven. So we read:
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Gal. 3:13-14)
So again, no case of "abrogation."
3. In Mathew 15:24, biblical Jesus says that he was sent only to the Jews who were lost.
- He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”[Mathew 15:24]
If that verse is not abrogated then you and all gentiles cannot be followers of Jesus, as you are not Jews.
This is what happens to people who read books of criticism written by Islamists, but actually don't read the Bible. I've read the Koran: how is it that you have not read the Bible, so as at least to know what you are quoting?
That verse is not "abrogated." It's descriptive of a phase of ministry of Christ, where he FIRST came to the Jews, THEN came to the Gentiles. As it is written,
"There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Gentile, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Gentile." (Romans 2:9-10)
The whole Trinitarian theology depends existentially on the principle of abrogation.
Again, it does not. From Genesis on, God is described in
Torah as a compound unity.
You will not find any principle of "abrogation" in Christianity. Rather, you will find this declaration from Jesus Christ Himself,
“Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!" (Matthew 5:17-18)
So Jesus Christ accomplished the Law, and did not abolish. And unlike Islam, He did not abrogate one of His statements for another. But in Islam, the "peaceful" saying of the Medina period are abrogated for Mohammed's ensuing warlike period, which not only lasted to the end of his life but went well beyond, generating what is the most bloodthirsty religion in the history of mankind and continues to be bloodthirsty to this day, as Hamas has just proved in front of the entire world...
Or do you, as a Muslim, abrogate your association with the Muslims of Hamas?
Of course, I can't know if you do, because of the principle of
taqiyya, can I?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 5:49 pm
The second factor is the Islamic practice of
taqiyya. You will know that this means "religiously-virtuous deception of the opponents of Islam." An Islamic person can lie to infidels, and it is not counted as lying, and it can actually be regarded as an act of religious devotion.
In the Old Testament, in many places, the biblical god is said to deceive and command deception.
I could go through your individual cases here, but there's really no point. And the reason is that even if you were 100% right (though, of course, you're not), your argument would only prove that not only could I never know whether or not you were speaking truth, but
now you could not know whether or not I was! 
Having
two deceivers in a conversation doesn't make the conversation
more valuable or truthful, but
less so.
However, in Christianity, there is no principle of
taqiyya, whereas your Islamic scholars are proud to own that principle in Islam. It's the only way they are able to interpret the Koran at all, since it's so self-contradictory, in fact.
All I can tell you is that you need to lay down your Islamic books that try to undermined the Bible, and read the Bible for yourself, so you can not only have individual verses but also the context and explanation for them that is found in the Bible itself, as I've illustrated above. But in the Koran, we have almost no context, obviously, because the individual verses or suras are not connected by context but arranged by length, and grouped according to broad theme, but in no particular way so as to illumate the whole. Abrogation has been necessary precisely because the Koran doesn't have context, stay on theme, cohere as a narrative, or even stay true to itself.
But if you're like most Muslims I've met, I suspect you probably haven't investigated that, either. They don't seem to read the Koran so much as listen to whatever their religious authorities and the Hadiths tell them. But an investigation of both Bible and Koran would prove most illuminating, I think.
Still, we can't get past the Islamic principle of
taqiyya here. So I think we've said as much as we can.
