Wonkers and Israel

[Impenitent]

driving people from their homelands...

look at the history of the world...

when has it not been about driving people from their homelands?

history never repeats...

-Imp

[Walker]

From where I sit I find Walker's views and position to be illustrative of conceptual, philosophical, political and ideological confusion. In fact, and though Walker does not seem to be either Christian or religious, the position he holds is comparable to that of some Christian Zionists.

Actually, I am not the topic, but since you insist ...

We have been very clear. My viewpoint is that if your next-door neighbors insist on cutting off the heads of your babies, then they might want to look elsewhere for lodging accomodations, and watch their backs while leaving. Doing so in the past would have saved them the inconveniences of security checkpoints, which they earned through their history of terroristics acts against their neighbor.

What one word is jaronesque enough to get that description of me slotted into your taxonomy?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Actually, I am not the topic, but since you insist ...

We are the topics insofar as narratives -- stories, interpretations, what is spun -- determine how we see things and, importantly, what policy choices we support.

Note that I have made the suggestion that it stands within our power to lift our eyes from the flickering imagery flashing on the walls of that metaphorical cave -- it really seems to me a sound metaphor -- and examine the projectors.

Please note that, for myself (and Harry Baird can attest to this), I used to be somewhat of a Zionist apologist. What I said then is that it is not moral considerations that drive power in our world, but power that seeks to justify what it does through molding narratives.

I said that Israel -- the re-founding of it -- is at the base a power-assertion. It will be as they choose it to be. They will, eventually, drive out or kill off the original inhabitants so to be able to reclaim not only the Israel of our present maps but the further Zionist ideal: Greater Israel.

The justification of the re-establishment of Israel, the core of Zionism, appears as secular, but scratch the surface and it is deeply rooted in biblical narratives. If you choose to agree with those narratives, if you say "God stands behind the re-establishment of Israel in 1948", then you have made your perceptual choice, right? But if you can say that, and say that "God wants that wicked Dome of the Rock to be destroyed" then should it surprise you that someone else will use the same narrative against your own temple, and by extension your beloved state?

Your sons & daughters, your parents & grandparents will be annihilated through necessary correspondence of narrative.

If you can justify turning Gaza into a parking lot, and this is said, and it is said in Israel, and it has been the primary policy of Israel since the first incursion, then it stands to reason that you may have to swallow your own bitter medicine at some point or other. And what will be your primary defense against the *justice* of that?

OK, fair enough. It is Power and Power alone that determines what is right, good and true.

[Peter Kropotkin]

let us rethink this...

Hamas attacks Israel.. and Israel ''defends itself" so far, so good,
but at what point is Israel going beyond just defending itself?
I suspect the point was reached when Israel decided to blockade
Gaza and full on attack Gaza... it is no longer about defending oneself
when one takes such an aggressive approach..
because at that point, then isn't Gaza just defending itself?
and on and on and on the circle goes....is there a ''right'' party or
a ''wrong'' party... Nah, it is just about killing now... on both sides...
and it will not benefit anyone... in fact, I would suggest that these
actions will damage the Middle East for decades to come...
and in that, no one wins... there are only losers in these actions...

anytime chaos and war occur, no one wins...

Kropotkin

[Alexis Jacobi]

My viewpoint is that if your next-door neighbors insist on cutting off the heads of your babies, then they might want to look elsewhere for lodging accomodations, and watch their backs while leaving.

This is an interesting switch-up, Walker. Give me a minute to get accustomed. Whew! you work with radical ideas!

So you propose that the population of Israel should leave the area and return where? To Europe? To Russia?

Somehow this does not seem very practicable but I am open to hearing how you imagine it will be organized.

[Peter Kropotkin]

In fact, this war has no benefit to anyone...
now it's about the airing of past grievousness against the other side...

the ancient childhood lies of ''but mom, he started it".. and it
is a child's response on both side that drive the war now...

I have been hurt and now I must hurt the other guy...an eye for an eye..
and has been noted, all that does is blind everyone...

I suppose that we should not be surprise that the adults have fled the
scene now... I had hope that the U.S would be an adult in this war..
but this automatic default position of supporting Israel
no matter what, is preventing us from being the adults in the room...
and that is too bad...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

as I am attempting to pursue this matter, philosophically,
I shall try to remain ''objective" or even perhaps, ''' indifferent"
to the competing sides..

but Kropotkin, ''Hamas is beheading children''... and that is polemical
thinking... what if, what if Hamas believes that is part of defending itself...
the answer is usually, and in Israel case has been, it is defending itself...
and where does one draw the line in ''defending oneself?"

one of the first causalities of war is the truth... and we find this to be
true today...is Hamas actually beheading children? I can't say and neither can you....
but Kropotkin, there are pictures.... let us think epistemologically....

where is the truth found? In the press, nah, everyone has a side...
and within the reporting done by the respective parties, nah...
and pictures? pictures are decided by our own interpretation of
the truth...

let us take this example... I see a cow... but that isn't really the story..
to know that I have seen a cow, requires me to determine what a cow is...
and that is done by example and experience... I can't know what a cow is
by ''a prior" knowledge... before the facts experience... I am taught
what a cow is and what's its purpose is... for me, a cow is lunch..
for Hindu's, cows are sacred and who is right? well, it depends on the
on our experience or better said, our indoctrinations...
we are taught what a cow is and its purpose.. and that teaching is
nothing more than indoctrinations... we see cows through the lens
of what we were taught..... do cows have other purposes? of course,
but that would take experience to know....

let us try the example of the Hamas and the beheading of children...
do we actually know that it is Hamas? do we know that they are in fact,
beheading children? well Kropotkin, we have video's of them doing it...
and how are you viewing that video? through the lens of our
indoctrinations... Hamas bad, Israel good.. or perhaps we might say,
Hamas good, Israel bad...and we see all of that in light of our
indoctrinations... from childhood to our education, to our media to
our political indoctrinations... everything we view, we view through
our various indoctrinations.. and what is the truth? who knows, because
we can't get past our current indoctrinations....is Israel, the bad guy?
or is Hamas, the bad guy? what if, what if I say, both are guilty of
being the bad guy and there is no good guy in this scene

a man shoots another man... well, clearly that is one bad guy shooting
a good guy... but there is the past.. and in the past, the guy who shot the
other was molested by the one shot... now the scene/scenario changes...
or perhaps the shooter was defending himself...from the past actions
or due to current actions.... we have no way to know until we understand
the entire story...and that is what is missing from this current war....
what is the history or the past between the two? Given the past,
there is really no way that Israel can be considered the ''good guy''
in the guise of defending itself, Israel has committed crimes against
humanity... and few will argue that...but so has Hamas... So, how do
we determine who is the ''bad guy'' or the 'good guy?''

condemn both or praise both or simply ignore both?

there is much more to the story than just labeling one a good guy''
and the other a ''bad guy''...

but who is willing to seek out the story? and therein lies the problem...
because whose story are we willing to believe? Hamas or Israel?

one side or the other side, both or neither?

what you see is not what you get.. what you see is actually a product
of your indoctrinations from childhood...and the current ''story'' being told
by the state/society/media/ church.... everyone has a story.. but which story
is true and which story is made up? that is the question....

and how do we determine which story to believe?

Kropotkin

[Alexis Jacobi]

BLM, the Democrat Party, and Palestinian terrorists have at least one thing in common. They hate America.

Come to think of it, don't you hate America?

All have been conditioned to hate via sources that are considered authoritative.

Bit by bit, Walker, I see myself as paragliding into your mind! Watch out!

You are getting closer, though I think inadvertently, to another interesting core that is encased within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Good work!

Israel is defined as a *racist apartheid* state. The very notion that a state can be established that is solely populated by those who are Jews, when even Jewish identity is strangely determined, has led to considerable problems in Israel itself. Because there is a large, and growing, population of Arab Israelis who also comprise the *democratic* state but who, if they expanded demographically, would challenge the Jewish state. There are factions within Israeli society that openly advocate for the expulsion of non-Jews from within Israel. These are intense, usually religious zealots, and they are a growing power within Israeli society.

We have to face some embarrassing truths: the US and much of the world turned against South African apartheid as a veritable evil. It was decried in all the terms of the American Civil Rights Movement, and indeed many prominent Jews and Jewish organization, inside and outside of SA, worked hard to delegitimize South African and apartheid. "Social justice" is said to be one of those "Jewish values" that Judeo-Christianity brought to the Gentile world.

Naturally, BLM and anyone geared to a civil rights ideology, must oppose Israel's apartheid. If South Africa is the model, then Israel must democratically incorporate all residents of these lands, just as South Africa was forced to do so by international consensus.

This leads to another facet of this issue when considered topically and broadly. And here I present Barbara Spectre whose video went semi-viral when she spoke, as a Jew, of what she sees as a Jewish project to multiculturalize Europe. It is a fact that Jews have been very active in a group of different *progressive* areas from civil right to gay rights to abortion rights (etc.) but also have been said to have strong influence in the projects of changing the demographics of the United States. There are numerous others who say similar things as Barbara Spectre and these tend to jangle in the ears of those who do not appreciate having their culture and their societies undermined.

So they (are said to) say "Multiculturalism for thee but not for me" when Israel's interests are considered.

So we must recognize, it seems to me, that part of the crisis in the United States, and part of the significant social conflict, is related to demographic issues. In short the undermining of, the deliberate re-engineering of, the demography of the United States, and indeed the movement to redefine the United States into a New America, is a great part of the social struggle of today.

So I am unsure if it is sufficiently accurate to say They hate America. What they hate is what we were all encouraged to hate when we directed our righteous ire against the South African régime. What is happening -- correct me if I am wrong -- is that there is a new demographic power-center in the US and it seems to be grouped around the Democrat Party. The Old Guard, as well as the diminishing white demographic, is being (according to some) displaced.

So in this context they say a few things. First, that it is completely hypocritical for Israel to describe itself as a shining city on a hill when it is an apartheid state and that a cruel and barbaric conquest was completed when the state was established. This is not a fantasy-description it is a fact.

Second, that if the state of Israel as a state exclusively for a specific people is considered -- er hum -- kosher, then it stands to reason that European states comprised of white Europeans should be left to their own devices. That 'white identify' should not be made morally problematic, as indeed it is.

Third that Israel should therefore be allowed to marginalize and to exclude Arabs and Palestinians and should have the right to determine itself on ethnic and demographic levels.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hamas denies beheading of babies, rape, etc.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Ouch!

That fits.

Please explain.

I can explain, and I do explain. But the problem is actually one that you need to examine and confront.

So again -- and at least in this -- Monsieur Kropotkin made a trenchant statement:

all she cares about is the outrage... the actual issue is really unimportant...

How strange that I would be outraged by the beheading of babies and raping and murdering of women, along with all the other revolting atrocities these fucking kunts are committing. I must be mentally ill.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I assume that Egypt and Jordan will be welcoming all of the 'Palestinian' refugees who will need somewhere to go to...

[promethean75]

"Hamas denies beheading of babies, rape, etc."

Israel could be using the secret Jewish weapon for all we know, and aside from a little sexy time with the Jewish disco rave hotties they kidnapped, there may be little else happening other than the regular indiscriminate killing.

On the other hand, Hamas knows they would be more effective if they did the most brutal shit, see. It really is less about some islamic ritualistic termination of infidel Jews and more about being militarily and psychologically effective. Those fuckin idiots know those Israeli citizens that they indiscriminately kill are not some kind of 10th century infidels but regular Levi's jean wearing working people. If Muhammad was alive today he would never point to those Israeli people and say 'Them. Those guys right there, get em... that's the mortal enemy infidel spawn of shiatan the great liar. Kill them all.'

So they all know that shit is over done and they only do it becuz it's an expression of power. And three quarters of those assholes are only muslims becuz they gotta be. It's the power and libertine freedom of the marauding soldier that they like. They just wanna shoot guns and order women around and wear high tech military gear. Siriulsly you're twenty five years old and u grew up in a Hamad training camp listening to Arabic hip-hop. U don't give a fuck about this Muhammad boloney man.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

"Hamas denies beheading of babies, rape, etc."

Israel could be using the secret Jewish weapon for all we know, and aside from a little sexy time with the Jewish disco rave hotties they kidnapped, there may be little else happening other than the regular indiscriminate killing.

On the other hand, Hamas knows they would be more effective if they did the most brutal shit, see. It really is less about some islamic ritualistic termination of infidel Jews and more about being militarily and psychologically effective. Those fuckin idiots know those Israeli citizens that they indiscriminately kill are not some kind of 10th century infidels but regular Levi's jean wearing working people. If Muhammad was alive today he would never point to those Israeli people and say 'Them. Those guys right there, get em... that's the mortal enemy infidel spawn of shiatan the great liar. Kill them all.'

So they all know that shit is over done and they only do it becuz it's an expression of power. And three quarters of those assholes are only muslims becuz they gotta be. It's the power and libertine freedom of the marauding soldier that they like. They just wanna shoot guns and order women around and wear high tech military gear. Siriulsly you're twenty five years old and u grew up in a Hamad training camp listening to Arabic hip-hop. U don't give a fuck about this Muhammad boloney man.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Jews are indigenous to Israel

vegetariantaxidermy, thank you for your position!
In general, the challenges facing Israel are, of course, more interesting than real estate.
In my opinion, a deep worldview, philosophical shift is required, not only for Israel, but also for civilization as a whole. Starting with the answer to what truth is.
This is vital for the whole world, but Israel is at the forefront.
The last time this happened was when the Jewish Christian sect turned the consciousness of the whole world upside down.
But it didn't give the true answer to the question of what truth is, and therefore things are still there.
But from a practical point of view, yes, it is important to stop hiding from children and adults that Jews are the indigenous people in Judea, the Al-Aqsa Mosque stands on the Temple Mount, on which the famous Jewish temple stood.

It's certainly not to please you, and I have no idea what on earth you are on about here.

[Alexis Jacobi]

How strange that I would be outraged by the beheading of babies and raping and murdering of women, along with all the other revolting atrocities these fucking kunts are committing. I must be mentally ill.

"Outrage" is often a tool used by propagandists and especially in a war. You are likely not 'mentally ill' but you are intensely excitable and extremely negative consistently. Have you considered a vitamin supplement regimen?

This testimony during the time before the first invasion of Iraq was widely circulated. It moved many people. But it was false.

[Wiki] Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ (Arabic: نيره الصباح‎), called "Nurse Nayirah" in the media, was a fifteen-year-old Kuwaiti girl, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, in verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War. Her testimony, which was regarded as credible at the time, has since come to be regarded as wartime propaganda. The public relations firm Hill & Knowlton, which was in the employ of Citizens for a Free Kuwait, had arranged the testimony. Nayirah's testimony was widely publicized. Hill & Knowlton, which had filmed the hearing, sent out a video news release to Medialink, a firm which served about 700 television stations in the United States. That night, portions of the testimony aired on ABC's Nightline and NBC Nightly News reaching an estimated audience between 35 and 53 million Americans. Seven senators cited Nayirah's testimony in their speeches backing the use of force. President George Bush repeated the story at least ten times in the following weeks.

There is all sorts of room left for moral outrage and I sincerely hope I have not shortchanged you.