Wonkers and Israel

[Alexis Jacobi]

In other posts on other threads I have mentioned Fourth and Fifth Generation Warfare.

I have suggested (though I am as much in the dark as anyone and my speculations are guesses) that we are now well within a sort of global war. In a war of this sort the tools or armaments of that war are of another class but involve information, narrative, the engineering of perspectives by those who have the power to do so in order to achieve long-range war aims.

But in this sort of war an average person cannot make sense of the larger picture, cannot see the larger picture, because he is focused on details and, importantly, is propelled into partisan perspectives which he associates with his very self. That is, with which he is so identified that to suggest a different view, a different perspective, is taken as an assault on him and is fiercely resisted. (I suggest that a great deal of the bickering on this forum is of that sort: people who refuse to stand outside and above their own limited views to see a larger picture but also to talk, converse and argue reasonably and fairly).

In conditions such as these (if you accept the perspective I am suggesting) we have to think cynically. First things first: we must not immediately believe anything that is presented to us to believe. I will use an an example to be considered the events of 9/11 and I will suggest, because it seems true to me, that the beginning of world-level conflagration stems from that *fracturing* event.

Yes, you are right: I am suggesting that the event was used as a psy-op in order for specific global factions to be able to carry out long-range war-aims in that context I describe as Fourth and Fifth Generation Warfare. What happened? What was done? Anyone with two eyes can at least now, with retrospective vision, understand that specific global and geo-political war-aims were realized. In fact they are still going on.

With that said, and in keeping with my admonition that an ultra-cynical suspiciousness is what is needed -- so that we avoid getting sucked into a maelstrom of emotional reaction that is being cultivated in our media and by political figures -- I will suggest that it is nearly impossible that the State of Israel was unaware of a developing attack. There are narratives circulating that warnings were in fact given.

But let us consider the state of divided Israel society and the extremely critical political issues that have recently divided Israel and led to a political and social crisis. The most difficult political and social crisis is unfolding there for many reasons, but a major one is the definition of what Israel is and what it will be. A secular or a religious state. And on top of that the unsolveable issue that is at the root of Zionism itself: the displacement of an entire people who lived there. There are two choices: incorporate them *democratically* or annihilate them. That is why people compare Israel to South Africa and talk about an apartheid system. It is a cultural, religious, demographic and cultural issue that no one can solve.

I doubt that anyone on this forum is aware of the sort of narratives that are circulating in Israel that involve specific ultra-religious plans about how the Third Temple will be reconstructed and how "prophecy" is being fulfilled. I am not making this up. You are likely far on the outside of being informed about how the reestablishment of Israel is understood by such factions to be an historical culmination of Jewish prophecy and how the true-believing religious factions in Israel regard Israel as their state, and how they are obligated to follow the will of God (HaShem) in their efforts to construct a theocratic state. The so-called Ultra-Right in Israel have definite and significant ties with those factions that either think directly in these terms (prophetic reconquest) or are influenced by them in one degree or other. You have to understand the Jewish view of Amalek within the Jewish understanding of the reconquest of Israel by Zionism and the sort of imitation of the biblical narrative in all the events associated with the (re)founding of Israel.

You must understand how Christian Zionists have been roped-in to these hallucinatory views and you must understand that right now many Christian leaders are, for example, opening calling for the destruction and leveling of the Al Aqsa mosque so that the Third Temple can be constructed which then ushers in the Return of Jesus, the End of the World, and all the rest. Yes, these things are said among the mad Evangelical factions but these ideas pervade the thinking of religious Christians in the US.

You must notice how -- immediately! -- there arose a call to start war with Iran. And you must understand how a war on Iran is part of the chain of wars that were begun after (which had been planned prior to) 9/11. The *remodeling of the Middle East*.

Now with that said please consider the possibility that the recent events in Israel and the political and geo-political consequences and repercussions of them will result -- are resulting -- in further extensions of the same *general plan* that flowed out of the 9/11 events. If you accept the premise that it is impossible that the preparations for such a massive and consequential attack could have gone unnoticed by the security forces of Israel; and if you consider the deep political and social crisis that Israel was in that is now resolved by general unity; and if you consider how the Neoconservative establishment in the US (and other places) is gearing up to employ these events in definite ways; then I suggest that a different sort of interpretation can come forth from a more *distant* and as I say a *cynical* analysis.

I am not proposing to know or to understand what, if any, the ultimate function is of these (as I propose) contrived or managed events is. My interpretations must also be guessing of the sort by those who struggle to see and understand but who can't because of conflicting narratives or an abundance of narratives that overwhelm and confuse.

What I can say is that we should focus on 1) the unlikeliness that an event of this sort, with all the consequences that are and will flow from it, will not be employed within the power-dynamics and the political power-machinations in the United States. But there is a darker insinuation and that is that 2) in geo-political struggles of real consequence there is no manipulation that is kept off the table. We already know that 9/11 was a managed event, and we also know that events of real consequence flowed from those events. What we do not know, at least precisely, is to what degree they were known about and even 'managed' for larger purposes. Speculation (or paranoia) abounds but it always seems to remain nearly impossible to arrive at precise conclusions.

Ask this question: Is it possible that factions within Israel would or could allow such events to occur if the gains to be achieved as a result were worth the sacrifice? I am not saying that I know this to be true, and it is very hard for me to imagine that it could be possible. But what I do know, or believe I know, is that powerful factions, playing real geo-political games of vast consequence, have proven themselves capable of such manipulative machinations.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

They are beheading babies. Poor oppressed men. I bet they feel a lot less 'oppressed' now. Come on here and defend that sculptor, you pos.

[mickthinks]

They are beheading babies.

So we are led to believe by reports from Israel's military. Horrible if true.



The Israeli military admitted Wednesday that it had shot and killed a Palestinian toddler in the occupied West Bank by mistake earlier this month ...

Rights groups contend the Israeli military does too little to investigate and punish its soldiers for the killing of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, creating a pattern of impunity. From here

[vegetariantaxidermy]

How 'unpredictable'. Mickstinks. Another delightful psychopathic wonker. That's exactly the same as systematically beheading children.

Fuck off you little creep. You don't give a flying fuck about that toddler or any other child.

I knew the 'fake news' claims would start appearing. Taking lessons from the MAGA crowd that you claim to despise so much.

Actually those baby-beheading kunts are proud of their achievements and are filming it all. I suppose that's 'deep fake' AI then?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Veggie, you are entirely right to be horrified with the killing of Israelis. But you indicate in each of your posts a thorough ignorance of the scope of Israeli violence and killing of Palestinians -- far in excess of anything Palestinians have done to Israelis. The numbers are not comparable.

I must say that some years back I myself was strongly pro-Israel and to a degree pro-Zionist. It was my mistake not to have looked with less biased eyes at the real situation. It has been utterly atrocious for Palestinians from the start. No comparison is possible between Palestinian and Israeli suffering, wounding and death. And that is just a statement of fact. It does not require a partisan position to see those facts.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Fucking unbelievable. Is that all you've got? Whataboutisms? And what the fuck does being a 'Zionist' or not have to do with it?? I couldn't give a rat's arse about your personal politics. That just says it all really. The very fact that you even mention it. ANYTHING can be justified if you are that way inclined. People were the same in Nazi Germany. All the Nazis had to do was say that 'the Jews' were the cause of all their problems and their fate was sealed. It's called the 'fucked up deflection fallacy' nonargument.
It doesn't matter how evil the 'Palestinians' get, psychoathic wankers like Mickstinks and 'Sculptor' are always going to side with them and 'justify' it.
Kunts will be kunts no matter what.

[iambiguous]

They are beheading babies. Poor oppressed men. I bet they feel a lot less 'oppressed' now. Come on here and defend that sculptor, you pos.

Again, this is what fiercely fanatic objectivists -- God or No God -- are capable of when, given their own particular Kingdom of Ends, any and all means are able to be rationalized. And then justified.

Related to this, I was watching the news a couple of nights ago and it was noted that Hamas had in fact kidnapped Israeli babies. Nothing about them being beheaded but someone being interviewed voiced the fear that the babies might be handed over to Palestinian families to raise.

Shades of The Other Son: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... y#p2476698

In other words, think about it...

A baby who would have been raised in Israel may now be raised in the Gaza Strip. A baby who would probably be raised as a Jew may now be raised as a Muslim.

Now do you see my point about dasein?

Nope, didn't think so.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

So if Israelis were beheading Arab babies does anyone on here think I would be saying 'Oh, but that's justified, because 'whatabout' when those Arabs murdered those Israeli Olympic athletes, or blew up those school buses, or threw those children off the roof of that school building etc. etc. etc.?' ?
Would that be a 'reasonable' argument to be making? So why is ok for wonkers to do this?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Like I say, psychopaths the lot of them. It's a way of justifying their own emptiness and lack of any semblance of humanity.
It's the same as those people who say others shouldn't care about a plane crash because people die of cancer/on the roads etc. etc. all the time.
They are trying to justify their own nothingness.

[iambiguous]

Like I say, psychopaths the lot of them.

psychopath: a person affected by chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.

The thing about psychopaths is that to the extent he or she is afflicted clinically/medically with a mental disease [a brain tumor say] what does it mean to hold them morally responsible for beheading anyone?

sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

This gets trickier because such behaviors may be related to a medical condition or, instead, it may revolve around those men and women who simply embrace a moral philosophy that is entirely narcissistic.

On the other hand, a God or a No God objectivist may have no medical condition and may well possess a conscience. They simply embrace one or another "the end justifies the means" dogma that can take them all the way up to committing genocide.

[Walker]

They are beheading babies.

So we are led to believe by reports from Israel's military. Horrible if true.

That's another way of saying there is no proof, and never will be, the refuge of scoundrels.

However, the atrocities of the terrorists allow for no middle ground, no compromise, no negotiation, so Hamas has gotta go. Obviously it's not working out, and now it can't. They screwed the pooch, then shot it.

The folks in Gaza who let them in can resettle elsewhere because they overwhelmingly approve of terrorist tactics, and they can learn to code wherever they end up, as Biden has advised the coal miners he and BO dispossessed in the USofA.

They're right on the water. Other Muslim countries can bring in boats and haul the folks out, give them a big welcome and support them until they're on their feet. Uh huh.

You're probably not going to read that in your government media sources, since it sprung whole from my noggin.

(edited to remove the emoji, which is inappropriate)

[Alexis Jacobi]

Fucking unbelievable. Is that all you've got? Whataboutisms? And what the fuck does being a 'Zionist' or not have to do with it?? I couldn't give a rat's arse about your personal politics. That just says it all really. The very fact that you even mention it. ANYTHING can be justified if you are that way inclined. People were the same in Nazi Germany. All the Nazis had to do was say that 'the Jews' were the cause of all their problems and their fate was sealed. It's called the 'fucked up deflection fallacy' nonargument. It doesn't matter how evil the 'Palestinians' get, psychopathic wankers like Mickstinks and 'Sculptor' are always going to side with them and 'justify' it.

What I've got is what I have recently written about. And if your head were not overheated you would carefully read it and then carefully respond.

From my perspective, it is your attitude and your position within sheer ignorance that is the problem insofar as you seem not to have a realistic perspective on the history that drives all of this. It was not a whataboutism I presented but rather a perspective that views the history from a detached point.

Zionism is the exact root of the issue. And if you had any idea about what you are hysterical about, and if you had genuine interest in the matter (you do not), you would bother to make the effort to know something about it.

The conflict between Palestinians and Israeli Zionists has nothing to do with Nazism. It has to do with Zionism.

You are in no position to send up false assertions about fallacious arguments my ultra-grumpy hysteric! Every argument and assertion you have put forward on this thread has been completely fallacious.

I am not concerned about Sculptor or MickThinks position in relation to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I am interested in the facts of the case and seeing them clearly.

You are very very far away from that. Not even close.

[Walker]

(continued)

And when they do sail away, it will be to the promised land that begins at the Rio Grande.

[Alexis Jacobi]

However, the atrocities of the terrorists allow for no middle ground, no compromise, no negotiation, so Hamas has gotta go. Obviously it's not working out, and now it can't. They screwed the pooch, then shot it.

It is the responsibility of citizenry to gather the facts, not to rely on prefabricated items from talking-point lists. What you have said here is an example of a recitation from a talking-point list. With this argument, which is not really an argument but a block against real research into the sixty year-old issue, you offer yourself to those who will manipulate your ire.

I do not think my opinion will mater much to you but nevertheless I offer it in good faith.

The folks in Gaza who let them in can resettle elsewhere because they overwhelmingly approve of terrorist tactics, and they can learn to code wherever they end up, as Biden has advised the coal miners he and BO dispossessed in the USofA.

Interesting. Where will they settle then? In Europe. There is already talk of massive emigration from Gaza when, as it seems will soon happen, it is made even that much more unlivable.

They're right on the water. Other Muslim countries can bring in boats and haul the folks out, give them a big welcome and support them until they're on their feet. Uh huh.

My view? You have been sucked in to a destructive outlook. Just going along with the destructive mood. And therefore you are participating in what will come from it.

[Walker]

Naw, I'm just responding to the news.

One things for dang sure. It sure can't be the way it was. I've heard of neighbors not getting along, but when there is no grounds for getting along, someone has to move, and it's usually the squatters.

That's just the way things are. Doesn't mean I'm thrilled about it or anything about the situation.

I already told you. Other countries who hate the West can take them in. Sure, they will be inconvenienced, that's too bad. That's life and it beats death. They can learn to code. The oil countries are flush with cash, they can take in lots of folks.