Morality - where does it come from?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Impenitent wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:47 pm morality comes from other people who want to control your actions

-Imp
Well, the folks here pretty much blew by your comment, but it's actually a serious hypothesis. Nietzsche definitely thought it was correct. For him, all "moralizing" is just a cover for "the will to power," meaning the desire to dominate and control others.

But what follows from that? If all moralizing has that purpose and no more than that, then it would be quite reasonable simply to ignore all of it. Then, ultimately, the reply to any interdiction against rape / murder / enslavement / genocide / race discrimination / oppression / etc.?" would be, "You're not the boss of me." :shock:
Gary Childress
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:47 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:47 pm morality comes from other people who want to control your actions

-Imp
Well, the folks here pretty much blew by your comment, but it's actually a serious hypothesis. Nietzsche definitely thought it was correct. For him, all "moralizing" is just a cover for "the will to power," meaning the desire to dominate and control others.

But what follows from that? If all moralizing has that purpose and no more than that, then it would be quite reasonable simply to ignore all of it. Then, ultimately, the reply to any interdiction against rape / murder / enslavement / genocide / race discrimination / oppression / etc.?" would be, "You're not the boss of me." :shock:
I apologize for "blowing by" his comment if it is the case that I shouldn't have. I didn't really think it was all that serious. I usually take Imp's comments as tongue-in-cheek coming from a fellow curmudgeon. I didn't think even Imp truly believed that "morality" only comes from other people who just "want to control your actions." Good catch, IC! I hope you cure Imp from his moral nihilism. Poor guy! Maybe if he had started out an atheist in life as I did, he wouldn't still be thinking morality was that way but perhaps it takes a leap of atheism to discover foundations for contemporary morality? Anyway, I'm still agnostic. Just feel like maybe I ought to give you a shout-out for helping Imp, instead of only complaining about things all the time.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:47 pm
Impenitent wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 1:47 pm morality comes from other people who want to control your actions

-Imp
Well, the folks here pretty much blew by your comment, but it's actually a serious hypothesis. Nietzsche definitely thought it was correct. For him, all "moralizing" is just a cover for "the will to power," meaning the desire to dominate and control others.

But what follows from that? If all moralizing has that purpose and no more than that, then it would be quite reasonable simply to ignore all of it. Then, ultimately, the reply to any interdiction against rape / murder / enslavement / genocide / race discrimination / oppression / etc.?" would be, "You're not the boss of me." :shock:
I hope you cure Imp from his moral nihilism.
Well, that's not quite my point. I was giving Impenitent his due...if Atheism is true, then he's got the right argument.

Is it "curable"? Not from an Atheistic point of view, of course. Nietzsche was correct with his implications, if not with his assumption.
Gary Childress
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:07 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:34 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:47 pm
Well, the folks here pretty much blew by your comment, but it's actually a serious hypothesis. Nietzsche definitely thought it was correct. For him, all "moralizing" is just a cover for "the will to power," meaning the desire to dominate and control others.

But what follows from that? If all moralizing has that purpose and no more than that, then it would be quite reasonable simply to ignore all of it. Then, ultimately, the reply to any interdiction against rape / murder / enslavement / genocide / race discrimination / oppression / etc.?" would be, "You're not the boss of me." :shock:
I hope you cure Imp from his moral nihilism.
Well, that's not quite my point. I was giving Impenitent his due...if Atheism is true, then he's got the right argument.

Is it "curable"? Not from an Atheistic point of view, of course. Nietzsche was correct with his implications, if not with his assumption.
OK. then I guess it was fine for me to blow by his comment. As far as I can tell Imp doesn't himself believe half of the quips he posts. Usually, I take his posts as his petty rendition of what he thinks others around him think. But perhaps I'm wrong and he is posting his own beliefs. Maybe he really is a moral nihilist?

¯\_(*_*)_/¯
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 9:51 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 5:33 am Yes, that is what I have been arguing for, i.e. "morality is a naturally evolved behavior" that is inherent in all humans as a function with potential unfolding slowly within humanity.
You will have much better luck at understanding if you focus on what "immorality" is.

Words are words are words.

Why did we need the idea of "false" words?
What does falsehood (when permitted to replicate) do in a society?

Morality is not unfolding slowly or quickly. It's just unfolding.
What's unfolding is your understanding of what morality is.
Example, slavery is a moral element which is inherently detestable the first human was captured to be a slave of another.
Note how the drive [of humanity -majority] of the impulse and attitude to slavery has eroded over the last 10,000 years to the present, thus implying on the continuous improvements to the reduction in slavery [notably chattel slavery].

The improvements are unfolding slowly as implied by the slow continual progress over the last 10,000 years.
Skepdick
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Skepdick »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:48 am Example, slavery is a moral element which is inherently detestable the first human was captured to be a slave of another.
Note how the drive [of humanity -majority] of the impulse and attitude to slavery has eroded over the last 10,000 years to the present, thus implying on the continuous improvements to the reduction in slavery [notably chattel slavery].

The improvements are unfolding slowly as implied by the slow continual progress over the last 10,000 years.
So has slavery ended yet; or has it just become tolerably immoral?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:08 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:48 am Example, slavery is a moral element which is inherently detestable the first human was captured to be a slave of another.
Note how the drive [of humanity -majority] of the impulse and attitude to slavery has eroded over the last 10,000 years to the present, thus implying on the continuous improvements to the reduction in slavery [notably chattel slavery].

The improvements are unfolding slowly as implied by the slow continual progress over the last 10,000 years.
So has slavery ended yet; or has it just become tolerably immoral?
It is unlikely that impulse to enslave another human will end because it is a sort of evolutionary default and adaption which modern humans need to inhibit and modulate.
Even ants take slaves!!
How blood-red ants became slave snatchers
https://www.science.org/content/article ... -snatchers

As such, it is unlikely that slavery will end but humanity can mitigate it to the minimum optimally.
Compared to >10,000 years ago, at present all sovereign nations has banned chattel slavery and many had banned all forms of slavery. This is within the political arena which is not morality.

Within morality, humanity need to find ways to develop effective inhibitors [in the brain] in all humans such that any impulse to enslave will be optimally inhibited and modulated, such that they do not have the impulse to enslave another human spontaneously and naturally.

There is no consideration of tolerance for slavery.
The vision must be ZERO slavery of all forms and humanity must keep grinding optimizing to close the moral-slavery gap to the impossible to achieve ideal ZERO target.
Skepdick
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Skepdick »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:19 am
Skepdick wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:08 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 1:48 am Example, slavery is a moral element which is inherently detestable the first human was captured to be a slave of another.
Note how the drive [of humanity -majority] of the impulse and attitude to slavery has eroded over the last 10,000 years to the present, thus implying on the continuous improvements to the reduction in slavery [notably chattel slavery].

The improvements are unfolding slowly as implied by the slow continual progress over the last 10,000 years.
So has slavery ended yet; or has it just become tolerably immoral?
It is unlikely that impulse to enslave another human will end because it is a sort of evolutionary default and adaption which modern humans need to inhibit and modulate.
Even ants take slaves!!
How blood-red ants became slave snatchers
https://www.science.org/content/article ... -snatchers

As such, it is unlikely that slavery will end but humanity can mitigate it to the minimum optimally.
Compared to >10,000 years ago, at present all sovereign nations has banned chattel slavery and many had banned all forms of slavery. This is within the political arena which is not morality.

Within morality, humanity need to find ways to develop effective inhibitors [in the brain] in all humans such that any impulse to enslave will be optimally inhibited and modulated, such that they do not have the impulse to enslave another human spontaneously and naturally.

There is no consideration of tolerance for slavery.
The vision must be ZERO slavery of all forms and humanity must keep grinding optimizing to close the moral-slavery gap to the impossible to achieve ideal ZERO target.
So you aren't answering a categorical yes/no question.

Sounds like slavery has a very stretchy and multi-faceted definition.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Iwannaplato »

So, because ants take slaves, humans will never stop taking slaves to some degree in some instances.
It's an evolutionary default...despite the fact that many species of animals manage to somehow, miraculously, not take slaves.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:38 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:19 am
Skepdick wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:08 am
So has slavery ended yet; or has it just become tolerably immoral?
It is unlikely that impulse to enslave another human will end because it is a sort of evolutionary default and adaption which modern humans need to inhibit and modulate.
Even ants take slaves!!
How blood-red ants became slave snatchers
https://www.science.org/content/article ... -snatchers

As such, it is unlikely that slavery will end but humanity can mitigate it to the minimum optimally.
Compared to >10,000 years ago, at present all sovereign nations has banned chattel slavery and many had banned all forms of slavery. This is within the political arena which is not morality.

Within morality, humanity need to find ways to develop effective inhibitors [in the brain] in all humans such that any impulse to enslave will be optimally inhibited and modulated, such that they do not have the impulse to enslave another human spontaneously and naturally.

There is no consideration of tolerance for slavery.
The vision must be ZERO slavery of all forms and humanity must keep grinding optimizing to close the moral-slavery gap to the impossible to achieve ideal ZERO target.
So you aren't answering a categorical yes/no question.

Sounds like slavery has a very stretchy and multi-faceted definition.
"It is unlikely that impulse to enslave another human will end because .."
That's a categorical 'no' with provision no fallible human can give 100% certainty.
Skepdick
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Re: Morality - where does it come from?

Post by Skepdick »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:50 am "It is unlikely that impulse to enslave another human will end because .."
That's a categorical 'no' with provision no fallible human can give 100% certainty.
OK, but if you don't draw a line now on what that would even look like (as in metaphysically), when that's just a tautology.
You are speaking in categorical terms, but you aren't giving us a relativistic view on your stretch-definition.

What are you criteria for success on when slavery has ended

What would that be like?

You are just talking about "slavery" without providing any criteria for its deflation.
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