Yes. As I say...In my experience most people believe some things are just wrong, period. Not a matter of preference, taste, empathy or desire, but there is write and wrong.
*henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:58 pmA person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.
Even the slaver, the rapist, the murderer, the thief, and the liar recognizes his life, liberty, and property are his and would not willingly submit to slavery, rape, murder, theft, or defrauding. Where these individuals fail, where they act *immorally, is in refusing to recognize and respect others' moral claim to their own lives, liberties and properties. [*And, of course, the slaveries, murders, rapes, thefts, and frauds they commit.]
And becuz this sense of being one's own is universal, I surmise it isn't genetic or cultural. And that brings us to my deism (which currently falls outside this thread).
Anyway: as I say, morality is fact or morality is opinion. There's no other choices available.
As I say...There are sociopaths and psychopaths who don't believe and there is a small percentage of people who do not believe in objective morals but who are not psychopaths. IOW they have empathy for other people but are nto moral realists. The vast majority of people, in my experience, are moral realists.
So, I amend myself, correct myself: Hitler was a moral realist, a bad one, a hypocritical one. Where these individuals fail, where they act immorally, is in refusing to recognize and respect others' moral claim to their own lives, liberties and properties.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:36 am...the subjectivist is as much a moral realist as the avowed moral realist. I say his aversion to murder, slavery, theft, fraud, rape is becuz he knows in his bones, like anyone, like everyone, such acts violate a person's natural, moral, exclusive claim to his, and no other's, life, liberty, and property. Why he denies moral reality while living as a moral realist is akin to why necessitarians deny they're free wills while living as free wills.
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If I may...The leaders of the Third Reich propagated a particularistic ideology that was to replace the universalistic tradition of Christian and Enlightenment ethics and compassion to Aryan Germans, the Volksgemeinschaft. The Nazi regime saw empathy, pity, and mercy towards ‘racial aliens’, especially Jews, to ‘community aliens’, and other individuals and groups as a threat to or burden on the Volksgemeinschaft and denounced them as immoral. This philosophy built upon pre-Nazi ideologies, social Darwinism and racial hygiene, the code of honour, the ideal of emotional hardness, and the priority of the community over individualism. While motivating the deeds of many Nazi perpetrators, it also affected larger parts of Nazi society as it challenged the old moral standards.The leaders of the Third Reich propagated a particularistic morality that was to replace the universalistic tradition of Christian and Enlightenment ethics and compassion to Aryan Germans, the Volksgemeinschaft. The Nazi regime saw empathy, pity, and mercy towards ‘racial aliens’, especially Jews, to ‘community aliens’, and other individuals and groups as a threat to or burden on the Volksgemeinschaft and denounced them as immoral. This morality built upon pre-Nazi ideologies, social Darwinism and racial hygiene, the code of honour, the ideal of emotional hardness, and the priority of the community over individualism. While motivating the deeds of many Nazi perpetrators, it also affected larger parts of Nazi society as it challenged the old moral standards.
Now it's accurate.
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I translate this as Moral Fact varies.Moral realism varies.
No, It doesn't. The standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people's ideas get nearer to that real Right than others. CS Lewis
What varies is how one aligns himself with what is true. Lewis asserted, as I do, there are moral universals that appear in every culture, no matter when or where. This universal morality or Natural Law is True North. But, as I say...
Key here is one has to choose to ignore the needle. You say I do believe (Hitler) thought he was doing good in the world. Mebbe he did. That road is paved with good intentions, however. And his intentions led him to willfully ignore the needle.henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:14 amA compass is worthless if you ignore the needle. And no one is forced to mind the needle.
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Indeed. That's what my morality is called: Natural Rights Libertarianism.Your morality includes the idea that everyone should have certain rights - you didn't use that word but I think it fits.
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They do. A person, any person, every person knows his life, liberty, and property are his and no other's. If this is true for him, then it's true for all other persons. This means it's wrong to slave or be slaved, wrong to rape or be raped, wrong to murder or be murdered, wrong to steal or be stolen from, wrong to defraud or be defrauded.Other peoples morals do not have this idea.
Even the slaver, the rapist, the murderer, the thief, and the liar (and Hitler, and Chairman Mao)recognizes his life, liberty, and property are his and would not willingly submit to slavery, rape, murder, theft, or defrauding. Where these individuals fail, where they act immorally, is in refusing to recognize and respect others' moral claim to their own lives, liberties and properties.
The slaver knows the man he leashes is not his, knows the woman he sells is not his, knows the child he works is not his. He doesn't care or has completed complex moral gymnastics to self-delude that man, woman, and child are other than him or less than him. He de-personalizes them. They become commodities to be used. He, the slaver, must choose to commodify them.
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Capitalism, as it is only about capital, inevitably leads to immorality, yes (unlike Free Enterprise which about the transacting individuals and cannot, by definition, lead to immorality).they dislike, for example, capitalism because they see it as being unfair, and thus wrong/immoral.
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Yes, some are great users of moral sounding language. I say they've chosen to ignore the needle.They are great moralizers. They just have a different set of morals.
If they ignore the needle of course they will.most moral realists will make means to ends compromises also.
