Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

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Veritas Aequitas
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Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla insist there is an "unknown something" that exists as real, i.e. the noumenon.

To Hume in line with Kant, this supposedly 'unknown something' is a fiction of the mind;
https://iep.utm.edu/hume-ima/#SH5d
5d. The Philosophical Fiction of an Underlying Substance
Hume thinks that an ordinary sensible object, like a peach or melon, is just an aggregate of sensible qualities: for example, a ripe peach is an aggregate of a yellow-orange color, a fuzzy texture, solidity, and a sweet smell and taste (T 1.4.3.2, 1.4.3.5; SBN 219, 221).
However, he thinks that we are prone to suppose otherwise.
Instead of taking a peach to be an aggregate of many sensible qualities, we take it to be one thing.
This leads to a kind of philosophical puzzlement: how can many things (the many aggregated qualities) also be one thing—isn’t this an “evident contradiction” (T 1.4.3.2; SBN 219)?
According to Hume, many philosophers have responded to this puzzle by supposing that a peach is not the same thing as its sensible qualities, but is instead “an unknown something”—a substance or substratum that underlies its sensible qualities, and in which those qualities exist.
The presence of this “unknown something,” underlying the sensible qualities, is what gives the peach “a title to be call’d one thing” (T 1.4.3.5; SBN 221).

Hume thinks that this underlying substance or “unknown something” is a fiction, characteristic of ancient philosophy (T 1.4.3.1, 1.4.3.5; SBN 219, 221).
It is “feign[ed],” or postulated, by the exclusive imagination.
Hume also calls this fiction an “unintelligible chimera” (T 1.4.3.7; SBN 222).
Elsewhere, he explains the sense in which it [unknown something] is unintelligible.
All of our ideas are copied from our impressions, or are made up of ideas that are so copied.
But an underlying substance is supposed to be an entirely different kind of thing from an impression.
So, we cannot form an idea of an underlying substance (T 1.4.5.3; SBN 232–3).

Does this mean that we cannot think about underlying substances at all?
When Hume introduces the concept of an idea, he equates having ideas with thinking.
This suggests that the answer is yes—the fact that we cannot form an idea of an underlying substance does mean that we cannot think about such substances at all. [Kant – can think of the noumena]

However, other things that Hume says cast doubt on this interpretation.
He seems to posit several different fictions that cannot be made up of ideas copied from impressions.
For example, the “unintelligible” fiction of an underlying substance differs from the “incomprehensible” fiction of a perfect standard of equality (T 1.2.4.24; SBN 47–49).
But how can entertaining one of these fictions differ from entertaining the other if, in each case, we have no thought at all about the thing that we are feigning, or fictitiously representing?
Some commentators solve this puzzle by pointing to passages where Hume seems to distinguish two kinds of imaginative thought: conceiving and supposing (T 1.2.6.8–9, 1.4.2.56; SBN 67–68, 218).
Hume seems to equate conceiving with forming ideas (T 1.2.2.8; SBN 32).
This leaves open the possibility that supposing is a kind of imaginative thought that does not involve forming ideas.
If this is Hume’s view, then he can allow that we can think about underlying substances and perfect standards of equality by making suppositions about them, even though we cannot conceive them or form ideas that represent them.
For an interpretation of this kind, see Wilbanks (1968).
For a helpful discussion of the problem posed by “unintelligible” fictions, and a creative solution, see Loeb (2002: chapter 5, esp. 162–72).
What is the philosophical realists who cling to a noumenon respond to the above?

Other Views?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:
Related post;
Noumena are Intelligible Objects, thus Illusory
viewtopic.php?t=40258
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:47 am Atla insist there is an "unknown something" that exists as real, i.e. the noumenon.

To Hume in line with Kant, this supposedly 'unknown something' is a fiction of the mind;
Hume wrote: But an underlying substance is supposed to be an entirely different kind of thing from an impression.
So, we cannot form an idea of an underlying substance (T 1.4.5.3; SBN 232–3).
Too bad Hume was a dumb dualist and Kant relied on him.

The default, nondual view is that the inner "mental" world and the external "mind-independent" world are two parts of the same world, they are of one and the same substance. So it's probably insane to presuppose an entirely different kind of underlying substance.

Rejecting an entirely different kind of underlying substance isn't the same as rejecting the mind-independent world.

This is exactly the kind of dualist nonsense that has been haunting Western philosophy for over 250 years (over 2300 years actually), thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:20 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:47 am Atla insist there is an "unknown something" that exists as real, i.e. the noumenon.

To Hume in line with Kant, this supposedly 'unknown something' is a fiction of the mind;
Hume wrote: But an underlying substance is supposed to be an entirely different kind of thing from an impression.
So, we cannot form an idea of an underlying substance (T 1.4.5.3; SBN 232–3).
Too bad Hume was a dumb dualist and Kant relied on him.

The default, nondual view is that the inner "mental" world and the external "mind-independent" world are two parts of the same world, they are of one and the same substance. So it's probably insane to presuppose an entirely different kind of underlying substance.

Rejecting an entirely different kind of underlying substance isn't the same as rejecting the mind-independent world.

This is exactly the kind of dualist nonsense that has been haunting Western philosophy for over 250 years (over 2300 years actually), thanks for bringing it to my attention.
You're a Philosophical gnat.

Do you know Kant and Hume are recognized as the 10 ten greatest Western philosophers of all times [Kant top two]?

Appear you need to uplift your philosophical education.
The default, nondual view is that the inner "mental" world and the external "mind-independent" world are two parts of the same world, they are of one and the same substance. So it's probably insane to presuppose an entirely different kind of underlying substance.
You are the one who is insisting on the "unknown something".

"are two parts of the same world" i.e. the same world that is the 'unknown something' in your sense.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:06 am
Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:20 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:47 am Atla insist there is an "unknown something" that exists as real, i.e. the noumenon.

To Hume in line with Kant, this supposedly 'unknown something' is a fiction of the mind;
Too bad Hume was a dumb dualist and Kant relied on him.

The default, nondual view is that the inner "mental" world and the external "mind-independent" world are two parts of the same world, they are of one and the same substance. So it's probably insane to presuppose an entirely different kind of underlying substance.

Rejecting an entirely different kind of underlying substance isn't the same as rejecting the mind-independent world.

This is exactly the kind of dualist nonsense that has been haunting Western philosophy for over 250 years (over 2300 years actually), thanks for bringing it to my attention.
You're a Philosophical gnat.

Do you know Kant and Hume are recognized as the 10 ten greatest Western philosophers of all times [Kant top two]?

Appear you need to uplift your philosophical education.
Popularity contest is not a philosophical argument.

You're the philosophical gnat. All of Western philosophy is dualistic and inferior to nondual philosophy.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:12 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:06 am
Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:20 am
Too bad Hume was a dumb dualist and Kant relied on him.

The default, nondual view is that the inner "mental" world and the external "mind-independent" world are two parts of the same world, they are of one and the same substance. So it's probably insane to presuppose an entirely different kind of underlying substance.

Rejecting an entirely different kind of underlying substance isn't the same as rejecting the mind-independent world.

This is exactly the kind of dualist nonsense that has been haunting Western philosophy for over 250 years (over 2300 years actually), thanks for bringing it to my attention.
You're a Philosophical gnat.

Do you know Kant and Hume are recognized as the 10 ten greatest Western philosophers of all times [Kant top two]?

Appear you need to uplift your philosophical education.
Popularity contest is not a philosophical argument.
You're the philosophical gnat. All of Western philosophy is dualistic and inferior to nondual philosophy.
Whether it is dualistic or non-dual, you are still referring to something unknown, i.e. in your case an unknown something that is non-dual, which is a fiction of your imagination, thus illusory.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:19 am
Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:12 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:06 am
You're a Philosophical gnat.

Do you know Kant and Hume are recognized as the 10 ten greatest Western philosophers of all times [Kant top two]?

Appear you need to uplift your philosophical education.
Popularity contest is not a philosophical argument.
You're the philosophical gnat. All of Western philosophy is dualistic and inferior to nondual philosophy.
Whether it is dualistic or non-dual, you are still referring to something unknown, i.e. in your case an unknown something that is non-dual, which is a fiction of your imagination, thus illusory.
Prove it. If it's part of the same world then it's not necessarily entirely unknowable.

Why do you think we evolved to perceive the external world when there is none.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:22 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:19 am
Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:12 am
Popularity contest is not a philosophical argument.
You're the philosophical gnat. All of Western philosophy is dualistic and inferior to nondual philosophy.
Whether it is dualistic or non-dual, you are still referring to something unknown, i.e. in your case an unknown something that is non-dual, which is a fiction of your imagination, thus illusory.
Prove it. If it's part of the same world then it's not necessarily entirely unknowable.
You are the one who had been claiming all this while, there is 'something unknown'; you have changed your mind?
Since you are making the positive claim of an unknown something, the onus is on you to prove it.
Why do you think we evolved to perceive the external world when there is none.
Evolution is not absolute with 'truth' of the external world or whatever.
Evolution will lie or deceived humans where necessary to ensure survival and preservation of the species.

Example, where there is a piece of rope in the shade, humans are evolved to perceive [majority do] it as a "snake" instantly because this has survival value; in this case, evolution has lied or deceived humans to increase the probability of human survival and preservation of the species.
There are many instance where humans are deceived by the process of evolution.

It is the same with the external world which is an illusion evolution has programmed into all humans and encoded in the DNA.
As I had argued the sense of externalness and a mind-independent external world is an evolutionary default which you and the like is clinging to it as an extreme ideology driven by psychological impulses.

Hume in all the links above has given an idea of how the mind is deceived into grasping the external world exists as absolute mind-independent, which is illusory and fiction.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:20 am Too bad Hume was a dumb dualist
I understand the urge to dismiss the whole thing. But as often is the case, what is attributed to people VA uses is often qualified or controversial or not clear.
However, other things that Hume says cast doubt on this interpretation. [and what follows]
and
[Kant – can think of the noumena]
So, we are presented an authority Hume by an authority on Hume - whoever it was - who grants that Kant did what Hume thought one couldn't do.

There's not even a strong need to disagree and present arguments against the position presented since the experts themselves contradict each other or point out that the actual position is not clear.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:01 amYou are the one who had been claiming all this while, there is 'something unknown'; you have changed your mind?
Since you are making the positive claim of an unknown something, the onus is on you to prove it.
It's proven by science as much as it is possible to prove something. 100% support
Evolution is not absolute with 'truth' of the external world or whatever.
Evolution will lie or deceived humans where necessary to ensure survival and preservation of the species.

Example, where there is a piece of rope in the shade, humans are evolved to perceive [majority do] it as a "snake" instantly because this has survival value; in this case, evolution has lied or deceived humans to increase the probability of human survival and preservation of the species.
There are many instance where humans are deceived by the process of evolution.

It is the same with the external world which is an illusion evolution has programmed into all humans and encoded in the DNA.
As I had argued the sense of externalness and a mind-independent external world is an evolutionary default which you and the like is clinging to it as an extreme ideology driven by psychological impulses.

Hume in all the links above has given an idea of how the mind is deceived into grasping the external world exists as absolute mind-independent, which is illusory and fiction.
A completely idiotic argument. Just because there are some illusions, doesn't mean that there is no external world in general, the two issues are not "the same". And this must be the biggest understatement I've ever written down.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:23 am I understand the urge to dismiss the whole thing. But as often is the case, what is attributed to people VA uses is often qualified or controversial or not clear.
VA doesn't understand nuance and only reacts when ad homs are present, so I have to make very simple claims and also throw in some insults.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:27 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:23 am I understand the urge to dismiss the whole thing. But as often is the case, what is attributed to people VA uses is often qualified or controversial or not clear.
VA doesn't understand nuance and only reacts when ad homs are present, so I have to make very simple claims and also throw in some insults.
Well, then the pragmatist says: As you were.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:20 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:01 amYou are the one who had been claiming all this while, there is 'something unknown'; you have changed your mind?
Since you are making the positive claim of an unknown something, the onus is on you to prove it.
It's proven by science as much as it is possible to prove something. 100% support
Show me evidence where science has proven that 'unknown something'?
I predict you will resort to handwaving.
Evolution is not absolute with 'truth' of the external world or whatever.
Evolution will lie or deceived humans where necessary to ensure survival and preservation of the species.

Example, where there is a piece of rope in the shade, humans are evolved to perceive [majority do] it as a "snake" instantly because this has survival value; in this case, evolution has lied or deceived humans to increase the probability of human survival and preservation of the species.
There are many instance where humans are deceived by the process of evolution.

It is the same with the external world which is an illusion evolution has programmed into all humans and encoded in the DNA.
As I had argued the sense of externalness and a mind-independent external world is an evolutionary default which you and the like is clinging to it as an extreme ideology driven by psychological impulses.

Hume in all the links above has given an idea of how the mind is deceived into grasping the external world exists as absolute mind-independent, which is illusory and fiction.
A completely idiotic argument. Just because there are some illusions, doesn't mean that there is no external world in general, the two issues are not "the same". And this must be the biggest understatement I've ever written down.
Strawman.

Note I wrote,
"Evolution is not absolute with 'truth' of the external world or whatever."
What I am arguing that you cannot use 'evolution' as an absolute to insist there an absolute mind-independent external world.

You are the idiot who is too hasty in jumping to conclusion.

Read my point again;
There are many instance where humans are deceived by the process of evolution.

It is the same with the external world which is an illusion evolution has programmed into all humans and encoded in the DNA.
As I had argued the sense of externalness and a mind-independent external world is an evolutionary default which you and the like is clinging to it as an extreme ideology driven by psychological impulses.
My point is evolution do generate both the truth and illusion to facilitate survival.
Where philosophical realists grasp on the idea that there is an absolutely mind-independent world is a case of illusion generated by evolution.

Elsewhere I have argued,
"Philosophical Realism" [illusory] is an Evolutionary Default.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39975
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:27 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:23 am I understand the urge to dismiss the whole thing. But as often is the case, what is attributed to people VA uses is often qualified or controversial or not clear.
VA doesn't understand nuance and only reacts when ad homs are present, so I have to make very simple claims and also throw in some insults.
I have shown you a '1000' times you are just a philosophical gnat and an Ultracrepidarian in many cases.
It is only those who do not have sound and solid arguments that resort to insults of your kind.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Hume: An "Unknown Something" is a Fiction

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:19 amShow me evidence where science has proven that 'unknown something'?
I predict you will resort to handwaving.
You are always handwaving because you ignore the science of perception.
All of science is proof - science deals with noumena, the 'unknown something'. Except science doesn't work with 100% unknown, but say with 99% unknown.
Strawman.

Note I wrote,
"Evolution is not absolute with 'truth' of the external world or whatever."
What I am arguing that you cannot use 'evolution' as an absolute to insist there an absolute mind-independent external world.

You are the idiot who is too hasty in jumping to conclusion.

Read my point again;
There are many instance where humans are deceived by the process of evolution.

It is the same with the external world which is an illusion evolution has programmed into all humans and encoded in the DNA.
As I had argued the sense of externalness and a mind-independent external world is an evolutionary default which you and the like is clinging to it as an extreme ideology driven by psychological impulses.
My point is evolution do generate both the truth and illusion to facilitate survival.
Where philosophical realists grasp on the idea that there is an absolutely mind-independent world is a case of illusion generated by evolution.

Elsewhere I have argued,
"Philosophical Realism" [illusory] is an Evolutionary Default.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39975
Scientifically illiterate nonsense. There is no reason to think that evolution encoded the "illusion" of the external world, as 100% of science is consistent with a real external world.
Last edited by Atla on Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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