Christianity

[henry quirk]

I think you just need to lose the prejudice that no one can have the right morality unless they read the exact same books and believe in the same exact God (or one at all) that you and Manny do.

I never said you had to read any books (much less the right ones) or believe in a specific God.

Why are you sayin' I have?

[Gary Childress]

*Without a moral arbiter, your morality is just opinion becuz without a moral arbiter the only measure of what is right or wrong is opinion which can be personal (your own) or public (culture, etc.).

I don't get why you balk at this. You can't deny God's existence but then claim morality is anything but opinion.

Without God morality is just opinion. Without God my morality is just opinion. Without God Mannie's morality is just opinion. Without God your morality is just opinion.

With God morality has an objective ground. It's real, like a camp fire is real, and like a camp fire, your denying its exstance has no bearing on its existence. And like a campfire, it'll burn you if you ignore it or deny it.

Opinion or fact: morality must be one or the other. There's no middle ground.

Sorry, no bananas here, Henry. Strawmen and fallacies belong in another forum.

Please, point out the strawmen and fallacies.

False dichotomies in red.

[Immanuel Can]

Sorry. It's just not that hard.

Indeed, you seem to have little difficulty at all pegging full human beings into your limited belief system.

Atheists do that themselves. They are the ones who routinely insist they have nothing to defend, because all they do is deny the existence of God. If that's all they're up to, then a very "limited belief system" is indeed what they have. But you can't blame me; blame them.

[henry quirk]

That's fine. But if Henry was talking to people who think like that, obviously: which means he got the implications of their beliefs exactly right when he characterized them as he did.

And I never mentioned naturalism and have only, in this current conversation, brushed up against materialism.

I'm simply pointing out what is obvious: if there is no God, morality is just opinion. I keep waiting for someone to counter, but they don't.

Here you go, then. MORALITY IS NOT JUST OPINION. Does that help?

Now you need to back that assertion. If morality is not just opinion then its fact. Without God, what undergirds morality as fact?

[Gary Childress]

Sorry. It's just not that hard.

Indeed, you seem to have little difficulty at all pegging full human beings into your limited belief system.

Atheists do that themselves. They are the ones who routinely insist they have nothing to defend, because all they do is deny the existence of God. If that's all they're up to, then a very "limited belief system" is indeed what they have. But you can't blame me; blame them.

Then how much better than atheists are you?

[Gary Childress]

And I never mentioned naturalism and have only, in this current conversation, brushed up against materialism.

I'm simply pointing out what is obvious: if there is no God, morality is just opinion. I keep waiting for someone to counter, but they don't.

Here you go, then. MORALITY IS NOT JUST OPINION. Does that help?

Now you need to back that assertion. If morality is not just opinion then its fact. Without God, what undergirds morality as fact?

If you don't behave morally, then you and others around you may pay for your actions. How about that, Henry. Does that help?

[henry quirk]

I'm not sure ANYONE thinks that they can do whatever they want if there is no God. But if that's the case, then yes, I disagree with "naturalists".

Did any of us moral realists say subjectivists or atheists think they can do whatever they want?

I sure didn't.

You're no more a "moral realist" than anyone else, Henry (if the opposite is to be a moral unrealist or nonrealist). Stop pretending to be something you're not. Go stroke your gun for awhile if it'll make you happier.

Why are you atacking me, Gary. I'm not attacking you. Why is the idea that morality must be opinion or fact irk you? If you have a third option, I'd like to hear it.

[henry quirk]

It's not clear to me that other living beings lack free will completely. Perhaps they work in different frames of mind but *even most predators don't kill just because they can, usually it's out of fear or survival need.

*That's right. They kill becuz it's what they do to defend and to eat. Only man kills for other reasons. And only man can choose to not kill even if the choice hurts him. Man can choose. The shark or bear or eagle cannot.

How do you know? How would you even ask a shark or bear why they kill something?

You can't ask a machine why it does what it does, Gary. Even the vaunted AI can only regurgitate. It can't assess, muse, consider or conclude.

[henry quirk]

Sorry, no bananas here, Henry. Strawmen and fallacies belong in another forum.

Please, point out the strawmen and fallacies.

False dichotomies in red.

How is any of this...

Without God morality is just opinion. Without God my morality is just opinion. Without God Mannie's morality is just opinion. Without God your morality is just opinion.

With God morality has an objective ground. It's real, like a camp fire is real, and like a camp fire, your denying its exstance has no bearing on its existence. And like a campfire, it'll burn you if you ignore it or deny it.

...false? Please, be specific.

[Gary Childress]

Why is the idea that morality must be opinion or fact irk you? If you have a third option, I'd like to hear it.

The third option is that there is no God and morality is not just "opinion".

[Gary Childress]

*That's right. They kill becuz it's what they do to defend and to eat. Only man kills for other reasons. And only man can choose to not kill even if the choice hurts him. Man can choose. The shark or bear or eagle cannot.

How do you know? How would you even ask a shark or bear why they kill something?

You can't ask a machine why it does what it does, Gary. Even the vaunted AI can only regurgitate. It can't assess, muse, consider or conclude.

You can't ask a person in a coma either. Should we assume they're "machines"?

[Gary Childress]

Please, point out the strawmen and fallacies.

False dichotomies in red.

How is any of this...

Without God morality is just opinion. Without God my morality is just opinion. Without God Mannie's morality is just opinion. Without God your morality is just opinion.

With God morality has an objective ground. It's real, like a camp fire is real, and like a camp fire, your denying its exstance has no bearing on its existence. And like a campfire, it'll burn you if you ignore it or deny it.

...false? Please, be specific.

I wish I could be specific but we don't seem to speak the same language or something. You don't seem to understand what I say and I can't understand why you can't understand me. I mean, I can understand where you're coming from. I used to be that way before I got an education. Otherwise, I don't know where to begin.

I guess we could start with foreigners are people too. Maybe that would be a good start?

[Immanuel Can]

Indeed, you seem to have little difficulty at all pegging full human beings into your limited belief system.

Atheists do that themselves. They are the ones who routinely insist they have nothing to defend, because all they do is deny the existence of God. If that's all they're up to, then a very "limited belief system" is indeed what they have. But you can't blame me; blame them.

Then how much better than atheists are you?

Like them, I'm a normal human being, actually, no "better" than anybody else, and plausibly worse in some ways, maybe. But we don't need to judge a person in order to judge a creed. And that's what we're doing: we're talking about Atheism, and what makes sense in harmony with it, and what doesn't. We have no need to criticize particular people, but we certainly can criticize their belief system.

That's fair. After all, the one thing they set out to do, by their own declaration, is to criticize faith. If they can't take it, they probably shouldn't have come out swinging in the first place, right?

[henry quirk]

Here you go, then. MORALITY IS NOT JUST OPINION. Does that help?

Now you need to back that assertion. If morality is not just opinion then its fact. Without God, what undergirds morality as fact?

If you don't behave morally, then you and others around you may pay for your actions. How about that, Henry. Does that help?

Not really. All you're saying is: if, in the opinion of other folks, you're doin' wrong then they may take you to task.

[Gary Childress]

Atheists do that themselves. They are the ones who routinely insist they have nothing to defend, because all they do is deny the existence of God. If that's all they're up to, then a very "limited belief system" is indeed what they have. But you can't blame me; blame them.

Then how much better than atheists are you?

Like them, I'm a normal human being, actually, no "better" than anybody else, and plausibly worse in some ways, maybe. But we don't need to judge a person in order to judge a creed. And that's what we're doing: we're talking about Atheism, and what makes sense in harmony with it, and what doesn't. We have no need to criticize particular people, but we certainly can criticize their belief system.

That's fair. After all, the one thing they set out to do, by their own declaration, is to criticize faith. If they can't take it, they probably shouldn't have come out swinging in the first place, right?

OK.

1. The Bible is full of a lot of things that never really happened. Can we agree?

2. Any human being is capable of demonstrating moral awareness regardless of whether they believe there is a God or not. Can we agree?