in the east...

[Peter Kropotkin]

In Eastern philosophy the goal is to seek out release, liberation from
something... we are to escape rebirth, we are to escape false beliefs,
we are to escape suffering.... that is the goal in eastern philosophy...
basically, you're attempting to escape something....

but in the west, we don't have that ''escaping from''' that is so
prominent in the east... the religious goal and the secular goal
are vastly different... the religious goal is to go to heaven
and worship god... forever.... but think about that... in
the east, you are trying to become one with and in the west,
you are watching, not becoming something... the goal in the
west is, well, rather passive... whereas in the east, the goal is to
become one with the nothingness and thus escaping rebirth...
this escaping rebirth is a prominent idea in the east...
that is not present in the west... but we must ask ourselves,
what is the goal of the secular person in the west?
and that is the real problem.... we seek out money, and fame,
and titles and power, material possessions... Ok, but is there
something that we seek that lays outside of the pursuit of
these trinkets?

the religious try to get to heaven and watch god and in the east,
the religious try to become one with the divine... to escape, to
be liberated from.... that notion is not present in the west...
but then the lack of a goal within the western secular population
is really a problem....

we lack a secular goal for those who are not religious...and I
have offered up this as a possibility.... to seek out a value
as a ''way of life"... to live out one's life in the service
of love or peace or justice... every action one takes, is
to promote the value that one has adapted to live out
their life as a ''way of life""

the goal then is to seek out peace, not only in ourselves but
in all people and actions.... or to seek out justice as a ''way of life''
in our decisions and actions... not to get to heaven or to reach
nirvana... but to engage with as the meaning or goal of existence....
there is not need to engage in a religious frame of mind... because
that isn't what the point is... we aren't trying to get to heaven..
we are seeking out a life worth living... the goal lies within this life,
not in the next life..... for we cannot know if there is indeed a
next life... but we can live out this life and know that this life
does exists.... so that emphasis is on being in this life, not in
the next life....

so, we now seek out what the goal is for the secular person
in the west.... that is the problem...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

now one thought in the west, is to be of ''service''
to be part of something bigger than yourself...
and this feeling is quite common.. and it is usually
answered by public service... joining the armed forces
for example, would be one such answer...or
perhaps becoming a teacher or a police officer...
to be of public service....

one of the questions I recall from my childhood is, what
do you want to be when you grow up?

to be honest, I am still trying to answer that question...
but for many the question is answered by being a doctor,
or a lawyer or a baseball or football player... but that
answer leaves its own question... ok, we become a doctor
or a football player, then what? what is the goal after becoming
a doctor or a lawyer or something like that? well, I just make money
and then retire... without an understanding as to why someone would
want to be a doctor or a football player... this is really not an answer,
because it leaves out the point of being a doctor or a lawyer...
but Kropotkin, I want to help people... and help them how?
and for what reason? why do you want to help people and is
being a doctor or a lawyer, really the best way to help people
or, as I suspect, it is a cover for why one actually does become a
doctor or a lawyer... the money, the prestige, and in those cases,
there is really no thereafter... no such thing as a reason for....
those things, to be a doctor for wealth or titles or power is
just a return to the ego driven trinkets of existence...
the pointless reasons for being something.... like a doctor or
a lawyer...ego driven values like money or power or titles...
values that serve no one but yourself... and it certainly doesn't cover
the next question, which is ok, I am a doctor, now what? I serve
people, and to what end? see the point is that there is a second
question implied in asking oneself, what can I become?
and that question is ok, what comes after being a doctor or a lawyer?
what is the point of this service?

I read somewhere, a rather famous quote...

''Most people lead lives of quiet desperation"

and one has to wonder if this is true...
and if it is true, why do you suppose that it is true?

My guess is that after one has a job and a wife and family,
doing all the respectable things that people should be doing,
people have forgotten the second question....
which is, OK, I am a doctor or lawyer or a family man,
now what?

what is the next step? and most people don't know.. and thus
they lead lives of ''quiet desperation.''

what now.. should be the question we are asking ourselves...


Kropotkin

[Walker]

In Eastern philosophy the goal is to seek out release, liberation from
something... we are to escape rebirth, we are to escape false beliefs,
we are to escape suffering.... that is the goal in eastern philosophy...
basically, you're attempting to escape something....

The goal of eastern philosophy is to end the ignorance that obscures the nature of mind. Teachings about suffering reveal ignorance. Ignorance caused by attachment is the root of suffering and delusion that obscures the nature of mind, which is clarity.

[Lacewing]

Ignorance caused by attachment is the root of suffering and delusion that obscures the nature of mind, which is clarity.

Interesting that you don't recognize this in your unbalanced right-wing political views.

[Walker]

Ignorance caused by attachment is the root of suffering and delusion that obscures the nature of mind, which is clarity.

Interesting that you don't recognize this in your unbalanced right-wing political views.

Yo mamma.

[LuckyR]

True, some seek a "deeper meaning" to life. Me? I'm perfectly satisfied with the superficial meaning to life. Thus I am the polar opposite of quiet despiration.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Ignorance caused by attachment is the root of suffering and delusion that obscures the nature of mind, which is clarity.

Interesting that you don't recognize this in your unbalanced right-wing political views.

K: and your assumption is false... my ''unbalanced right wing views"
are not ignorance.. in fact, I hold that those who value right wing views,
for the many reasons I have posted, are the ones within ignorance..
my views are not ignorance but wisdom... and I stand by them as I done
so for the last 30 or so years...and again, for the myriad of reasons
I have listed..

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

another reason for people leading live of ''quiet desperation''
is that their goal of seeking out the trinkets of existence,
wealth, power, fame, titles, material possessions, are false goals...

They are empty goals for they are temporary and rootless...
what is the final result of seeking out wealth, just more wealth...
there is not final goal or destination in seeking out wealth...
it is ''ad hoc'' of the moment.. and not of any sort of duration...
money comes and goes.. rapidly... and those who were wealthy can
quite easily become poor and those who are poor can easily become
wealthy... there is nothing permanent or fixed about wealth..
and the exact same thing holds true for the other trinkets of
existence... they come and go, sometimes in a blink of an eye...
power and fame and material possessions are all ''ad hoc'' of
the moment, temporary.. so what is permanent?

seeking out wisdom is as permanent as one can get in our lives...
for once one has received wisdom, it can't be lost or stolen or
misplaced... wisdom found, is wisdom forever... and unlike
the trinkets of existence.... wisdom can even transcend our own
existence...it can be passed down to the next generation and
once wisdom is found, it is never lost...
it might get forgotten for a while because of the people's
need for the new and shiny things coming and going....
like someone who becomes famous for 5 minutes and then
totally forgotten.. until the show, "whatever happened to''
finds them in some trailer park...

think of the trinkets of existence like the sunlight today...
that sunlight seems to be permanent and forever... but in a few hours,
that sunlight will be gone until.... tomorrow...
and sometimes that sunlight disappears because of clouds and rain
and storms or where I am, fog.... and then the fog burns off and we have
sunlight again...

the fact is that the trinkets of existence are no more solid or real
than the sunlight that may or may not show today...

but we can create and live within our own reality... a reality that will
exists every day of our lives... if we find it.. and that reality is the
seeking out of wisdom... or of removing illusions that blind us from
that reality....and an illusion that blind us from reality is the
trinkets of existence... wealth, power, material possessions, fame,
titles... seeking these temporary things blinds us to what is real
and that is wisdom and understanding...

and what is wisdom? knowing the real reason for our general
unhappiness and malaise of today.... and that reason is that
we are not seeking out goals that allow us to become who we are...
goals like seeking out peace and hope and love and justice...
to become who you are means you take a value and you use
that value as a ''way of life''' but all of this is dedicated to
the idea that we must engage in the Socratic Maxim of
''knowing thyself'' and practicing the idea of
''the unexamined life isn't worth living''

most people just assume that the path of human beings require
us to seek out wealth or fame or titles or material possessions....
and that is false.... if we were to examine life and to ''know thyself''
one would realize that the true goal of existence is to discover
wisdom... for within wisdom comes the knowledge that can
be used from today to our last day and then in teaching our children,
our wisdom can go beyond our own lives...

Kropotkin

[Lacewing]

Ignorance caused by attachment is the root of suffering and delusion that obscures the nature of mind, which is clarity.

Interesting that you don't recognize this in your unbalanced right-wing political views.

K: and your assumption is false... my ''unbalanced right wing views"
are not ignorance.. in fact, I hold that those who value right wing views,
for the many reasons I have posted, are the ones within ignorance..

I was talking to Walker.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Peter Kropotkin:
another reason for people leading live of ''quiet desperation''
is that their goal of seeking out the trinkets of existence,
wealth, power, fame, titles, material possessions, are false goals...

They are empty goals for they are temporary and rootless...
what is the final result of seeking out wealth, just more wealth...
there is not final goal or destination in seeking out wealth...
it is ''ad hoc'' of the moment.. and not of any sort of duration...
money comes and goes.. rapidly... and those who were wealthy can
quite easily become poor and those who are poor can easily become
wealthy... there is nothing permanent or fixed about wealth..
and the exact same thing holds true for the other trinkets of
existence... they come and go, sometimes in a blink of an eye...
power and fame and material possessions are all ''ad hoc'' of
the moment, temporary.. so what is permanent?

seeking out wisdom is as permanent as one can get in our lives...
for once one has received wisdom, it can't be lost or stolen or
misplaced... wisdom found, is wisdom forever... and unlike
the trinkets of existence.... wisdom can even transcend our own
existence...it can be passed down to the next generation and
once wisdom is found, it is never lost...
it might get forgotten for a while because of the people's
need for the new and shiny things coming and going....
like someone who becomes famous for 5 minutes and then
totally forgotten.. until the show, "whatever happened to''
finds them in some trailer park...

think of the trinkets of existence like the sunlight today...
that sunlight seems to be permanent and forever... but in a few hours,
that sunlight will be gone until.... tomorrow...
and sometimes that sunlight disappears because of clouds and rain
and storms or where I am, fog.... and then the fog burns off and we have
sunlight again...

the fact is that the trinkets of existence are no more solid or real
than the sunlight that may or may not show today...

but we can create and live within our own reality... a reality that will
exists every day of our lives... if we find it.. and that reality is the
seeking out of wisdom... or of removing illusions that blind us from
that reality....and an illusion that blind us from reality is the
trinkets of existence... wealth, power, material possessions, fame,
titles... seeking these temporary things blinds us to what is real
and that is wisdom and understanding...

and what is wisdom? knowing the real reason for our general
unhappiness and malaise of today.... and that reason is that
we are not seeking out goals that allow us to become who we are...
goals like seeking out peace and hope and love and justice...
to become who you are means you take a value and you use
that value as a ''way of life''' but all of this is dedicated to
the idea that we must engage in the Socratic Maxim of
''knowing thyself'' and practicing the idea of
''the unexamined life isn't worth living''

most people just assume that the path of human beings require
us to seek out wealth or fame or titles or material possessions....
and that is false.... if we were to examine life and to ''know thyself''
one would realize that the true goal of existence is to discover
wisdom... for within wisdom comes the knowledge that can
be used from today to our last day and then in teaching our children,
our wisdom can go beyond our own lives...

K: and what wisdom exactly are we talking about? one of the wisdom's
is an understanding of ethics/morals... if we lived alone, separate from
other people, we actually would have no need for ethics/morals...
Robinson Crusoe had no need for ethics or morals until his man Friday
came... with two or more people, comes the need for ethics/morals....
a classroom, a state, a society, a civilization has a need for ethics/morals...

as we are social creatures, then ethics/morals must be about this social
nature of human beings...in the east, they focus on the state/society far
more than they do in the west... read Confucius and his focus is exactly
that.. how does one live within the state/the society and what duties
does a person have within the state/society?

Confucius emphasizes personal and governmental morality,
the correctness of social relationships, justice, kindness, and sincerity....
and the Buddha? He was focused on escaping suffering... and one of the paths
he took was through the governmental system of democracy... Buddhism is
strongly in favor of democracy.. there is a claim that the ''longest sustaining
democracy in the world is the Buddhist Sangha"
and one of the beliefs is that there is enough suffering in the world without
the need for people to add to it... we should be kind and thoughtful to
others because we are attempting to remove suffering in the world...
and if I am a dictator, I rule from what I want, not what is right for
the people and that creates suffering.. If I work to make as much
money as possible, that creates suffering because it reduces the
amount of money that others can have... our drive to seek out
our needs above all others, that creates suffering... if I fail
to act with justice in my dealings with others, that creates suffering...  
what gives me the right to increase the suffering of others?

and that becomes the basis of our ethics/morality.... to help others
to avoid pain and suffering.. and we can do that within helping
one or helping some or with helping everyone...

and within this basis of helping others to avoid pain and suffering,
we can also see our way to work out an economic policy...
that the economic system of capitalism depends on others
being so poor and dispirit, that they will take any job offered to them,
even at the cost of their own dignity and decency... to work in the
slave market today... for capitalism has very little choice within it...
basically, work or die... that is the capitalistic choice... and that choice
is no choice.. and what exactly are our choices in capitalism?
to be able to buy a dozen types of cereal... which in fact isn't even
true.. for there are only 6 companies that make 95% of all the cereals
in the world...the fact is that over 95% of the media is owned by just
6 companies and that of cars, 90% of all cars made are made
by just 6 companies... the truth of the matter is that we don't actually
have choice within the capitalistic system.. and that creates
suffering.... having choice, real choice is what help people
escape from suffering....the more limited a person is in
their choices, the more suffering that they have....
and within capitalism, the less money one has, the less choices
one has and the more suffering one has....

Confucius correctly points out that the role of government is to
help people and set the stage so that people can survive with
more choices in their lives.. or said another way, government is
to help people avoid suffering in their lives...and our modern
corporatocracy doesn't do that... government of the corporation,
government for the corporation, government by the corporation,...
and that is modern America.... and that leads to people suffering...
and that is not the goal of government according to either the Buddha
or Confucius...

and we must temper our government with our own personal choices...
for quite often, the choices of the government don't match the
choices of the people... and who is to ''win'' this battle?
it depends on who you ask..... in the west, we hold to the individual
values and choice, and in the east, the individual is part of the society,
the state... and somehow, we must connect, tie the two into one
belief system... include the whole, the state/society with the
one, the individual... and what can we do to aid the individual
in their pursuit of what is possible for them? and how can that
individual also play a role within the state/society?
and one of the answers is by everyone engaging in ethics/morals
that benefit all.... for that engagement of people into thinking
about what is best for all, the state and society, is one way to
help avoid the private suffering of some...

and that is the basis of thinking, for example, about Critical
race theory... for in America, racial bias was built into the American
political system... in the 3/5 tax solution about slaves for example...
and how women was considered to be the property of men, and
not considered to be equal in any way, shape or form... one such
example, women were not able to get a credit card
without the signature of a man until 1974.. the first time that women
could own a credit card in their own name...
details like this helps us to understand the nature of suffering... both
individually and collectively....

so, part of the point of our thinking about government is to think about
the suffering that people go through and work to avoid that.. and we
can do that individually, what actions can I take that will help others
from suffering? and we have one possible basis for ethics/morals...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and in our modern day and age, where to give a shit about
other's, as to if they are suffering or not, that is today,
considered to be ''WOKE'' to be concerned about the health
and welfare of others is ''WOKE"... This path leads to
an increase of suffering by others... and the question one
is asking is this....

"why should I give a shit about others?"

''what is in it for me?''

That is the modern approach to ethics and morality... what's in it for me?

and we return to idea that we are social creatures... that we cannot,
cannot exists without others... we simple can't... we live and die
as a people, as a state, as a society... we do not and cannot exist
individually... the primary point about being human is that
we are in need of others to meet our own needs... to be
human is to seek out our bodily and psychological needs...

to find love and to love others is a basic human need and one that
has to have others to be able to reach and to eat and drink and have
shelter, we must have others to reach those basic primary needs...
and to find esteem and safety/security and a sense of belonging,
all primary psychological needs that can only be met within
a society/state... and not to meet our needs, that is
the working definition of suffering... if we can't find love, we
suffer and if we can't feed ourselves, that is suffering and if we
can't find a sense of belonging, we suffer...

meeting our needs is a necessary path to avoiding suffering..
and so, in helping others to meet their own needs, to avoid
suffering, that is a major part of ethics/morals...

that is the role of the state/government... to aid people in meeting
their own needs.... and so, in trying to reduce the role of the state/
government as conservative do, they are increasing suffering in
people...and that is a violation of ethics/morals... the path of ethics
and morals is to reduce the amount of suffering that people do,
either individually or collectively....and in helping people meet
their own needs, that is the path forward... that is being ethical
or moral...

so we have an end, a goal we can work towards...
to reduce or even end suffering... now what means are
we going to use to do that? and that becomes the
question of political theory or politics.... how do reduce
or end, other people suffering?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

so let us test out this principle in terms of real life
issues....let us talk about abortion....

one of the primary roles of government is to be an umpire, a
judge between two competing parties in society...
and today, one faction of the society wants to ban abortion
and another faction want abortions to be legal for all...

and how do we resolve this?

one side says that abortions violate my religious convictions,
but the other side says that banning abortions remove
my rights to my own body...if abortions are banned, then
the state/government controls people's bodies...
that is the bottom line there...

but the fact is that those who oppose abortions are not
directly affected by abortions... what impact in my life
does Jane's Doe abortion in New York impact my life
as I live in California..... it may violate my religious beliefs,
but that doesn't directly impact me or my life... it prevents others
from having abortions, but that doesn't directly impact me...

whereas preventing women from having Abortions, that directly
impacts their lives... it forces women to have children that they
don't want... and that increases suffering... and our actions must
take into account suffering... now one might say, what about the
fetus? What about them? they can't think or feel or wonder about
the actions going on outside of the women....
and the fact that we give parents children until they
are 18 and legal adults... in other words, parents make
any and all decisions about children until they are 18...
children cannot make any decisions without a signature
of their parents.....in a very real sense, children belong to
their parents...it is a legal obligation to be in charge of children...
and by forcing women to have abortions, you are taking away
that legal right of being in charge of their children...

and the opposite side? as abortions have no direct impact on their lives
and it takes away a parent's rights.... there is no good argument for
taking away abortions rights individually...

how about collectively? what is the societies role in this matter?
an unwanted child is neglected by their parents.....
how does a parent love a child they didn't even want?
how does a parent give that child the love and attention they
must have, remember we are, all of us, about reaching our needs...
and children lacking love, fails the children and that fails the state/society...
for a child who is neglected and unloved will become a problem down
the line... prisons are full of unwanted and unloved children...
and I suspect, but can't prove, that part of the rise of our
drug use and the rise of alienation from the state/society comes
from our inability to meet our needs.... the social ills that we
complain about comes from people being unable to meet their
need for love or esteem or safety/security or a sense of belonging..
if we are unloved, neglected, where is the need of the sense
of belonging in that neglect or lack of love?

psychologically, we can say that our actions as adults, is in seeking
our unconscious needs that were not met as children..
we seek out love because it is a need, but what if you didn't get
enough love as a child? that unmet need drives our adult
behavior or actions.. even if we are not aware of it...

or people use their unconscious need for love or security/safety
into seeking out the trinkets of existence... we find a replacement
for love or safety/security in seeking out wealth or fame or power..
we replace one of our primary needs with a substitute...
to the detriment of our existence...

and what is enlightenment and being ''WOKE?"

To make that which is unconscious and unknown, known..

to become aware of our unconscious needs and desires that
were unmet in childhood... virtually, all our actions, behavior and desires
are needs that we have... and for most, those needs are needs that
were unmet as children...

that is becoming aware.... as is one of the primary maxims of
Socrates... ''to know thyself'' and ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''
that is how we become aware of our needs and what needs were unmet
as children...but one might say, but that makes existence really
a psychological problem... and what of it? life existence is
really a problem of needs, met and unmet...

how to meet those needs is why we have a state/society...

the question of politics and government is really a question of
how does government meet our needs.. and what needs are
a priority?

life is, in a very real sense, a psychological issue...
and how we deal with it, becomes a psychological
problem..

Kropotkin