human beings within nature, or not...

[Peter Kropotkin]

this is a continuation of another thread where the statement
has been made that human beings are not part of nature,
that we are somehow separate and apart from nature...

from a definition on the net...

Nature: Nature, in its broadest sense, is the physical world or
universe. ''Nature'' can refer to the phenomena of the physical
world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large,
if not the only part of science....

and given this definition, are we not part of the physical world?
we are born, live and die within the physical world... in fact,
being born is natural, and living is natural and dying is natural....
so how is life, human life specifically, outside of, apart
from nature?

we cannot logically separate human beings from nature...
we are part of and must act on nature... human nature
is in fact, natural... given that human beings have been
defined as creatures that exist within the state of nature,
or also defined as evolution... are we not creatures
of evolution, as ALL animals are.. defined by our evolutionary
nature... that evolution has created me and other human beings
as being social creatures cannot be denied... we are beings who
must interact with other human beings or we, as having been noted
before, we go insane if we do not interact with other human beings...
and babies who do not get human interactions within the first year of
life.. die... us interacting with other human beings is fundamental
to us as natural creatures... and all of that is because of evolution,
the natural evolution of all animals caused by nature.....

Skepdick has suggested that ''everyone'' holds the definition
of human beings somehow being separate and apart from nature..
and that is part of the problem.... that everyone does believe that...
and that is, in part, why we are in so much trouble on so many different
fronts...

that the climate crisis of today is due to the fact that we think ourselves
to be separate and apart from nature.... if we properly understood
our role in and within nature, we wouldn't have this climate crisis that
we currently have.... that we have several different issues facing us
and virtually all of them are caused by us thinking that we are apart,
separate from nature... that we are suffering from overpopulation
and pollution and draught and the reduction of resources, all stem
from our lack of understanding that we are part of nature....

part of what we need to do is a reengagement with the idea that
nature isn't something out there.. but something within us, not apart
or separate, but nature exists within us.....and we exist within nature...

until we ''get that'' we will continue to have the problems that plague us
both today and well into tomorrow...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

now one of the comments is that ''thinking is supernatural''
and my comment is bull.... thinking is very natural....
as is consciousness.... it might be said, maybe, that
humans are the only animal that thinks.. but that isn't true...
we know of animals that think.. I once read that intellectually,
dogs are smarter than babies until the end of the first year of life,
for babies..... and we know that Orangutans are among the most
intelligent primates... that they use tools... and that they seem to
understand the past.. in fact, it has been estimated that the
gorilla Koko was between 70 and 95 on the human IQ tests..
(which BTW is quite a bit higher than Trump)

if we correctly understand intelligence, that animals also have thinking....
and does that too make their thinking "supernatural?"...
somehow, I don't think so....

and what drives this believe that human are apart, separate from
nature? EGO, sheer ego.... that we are somehow, in some fashion,
separate from nature... to hold to human beings being part of nature
is to ''deny'' human beings their specialness.... that we are of nature
and not of divine creation... and that bothers many people in
thinking they are not special.... that they are of nature... that
they are not better or worse than dogs or cats or bats.....

we are animals... let us learn to love that and learn to live with that....
but the real path is one of growth, of traveling from animal to
animal/human to becoming fully human...

that is the path of being human because we are the only animal
that can see what is possible for us... we can become something that
we can be in the future... I believe myself to have the possibility of
being a great philosopher... that is my possibility... and I seek out
any chance to achieve that possibility.... but to be animal is to
not see that possibility existing... the greatness of being human is
not that we are supernatural, but that we can achieve what we
believe to be possible inside of us..... my greatness lies in achieving
my own possibilities... whether I achieve that or not, remains to be seen....

the goal is not to become supernatural, but to achieve what is possible for
us as human beings...greatness as a human being... and that is all anyone can
or should ask for...

Kropotkin

[Iwannaplato]

and what drives this believe that human are apart, separate from
nature? EGO, sheer ego.... that we are somehow, in some fashion,
separate from nature... to hold to human beings being part of nature
is to ''deny'' human beings their specialness....

And we need to remember that science was a strong promoter of the idea that we were not like (other) animals. It was taboo in professional contexts in science to consider animals as subjective creatures like us. While pagans, indignous groups (and yes, many animals trainers and pet owners in the West (even) had known for a long time that animals and humans were tightly related. Now in the 21st century the bias towards only considering animals as having consciousness is being eaten away at within science, but that presumption of human specialness was not present again in many animist and pagan groups.