Free will is wholly deterministic

[Skepdick]

No...it's still your choice.

It's not. Not anymore.

You can't pick & choose your moral responsibility, as a Free-Willist.

Exactly My moral responsibility has been determined.

You have to take the good with the bad, and especially the bad with the good.

I do. Which is why I have voluntarily abdicated my free will

Maybe one day you'l understand what "In God we trust" means. Giving up your free will to serve a greater purpose is part of it.

[Wizard22]

No...it's still your choice.

It's not. Not anymore.

You can't pick & choose your moral responsibility, as a Free-Willist.

Exactly Moral responsibility undermines free will.

No it doesn't, moral responsibility is the basis of free-will.

You have to take the good with the bad, and especially the bad with the good.

I do. Which is why I have voluntarily abdicated my free will

Maybe one day you'l understand what "In God we trust" means. Giving up your free will is part of it.

Says you. And I disagree.

[Skepdick]

Exactly Moral responsibility undermines free will.

No it doesn't, moral responsibility is the basis of free-will.

You are contradicting yourself...

Can you; or can't you pick & choose your moral responsibility?

Says you. And I disagree.

You disagree with everybody, but especially - you disagree with yourself.

[Iwannaplato]

I reject them all. I am firmly in favor of what Determinists claim is "Libertine Free-Will". What I know of Freedom, is Absolute. I can walk upside-down through the clouds. I am as big as planet Jupiter. I am at the Beginning of Time itself. I created the Cosmos. I made a shape that is both circle and square simultaneously. I undo the fabric of space and time. I am beyond Physics. I am above God.

Absolutely.
Free.
Will.

I can be convinced of this fairly easy, for someone above God. I'm at work. Could you have a nice Tandoori lunch waiting for me on my dining table?

I

[Skepdick]

I reject them all. I am firmly in favor of what Determinists claim is "Libertine Free-Will". What I know of Freedom, is Absolute. I can walk upside-down through the clouds. I am as big as planet Jupiter. I am at the Beginning of Time itself. I created the Cosmos. I made a shape that is both circle and square simultaneously. I undo the fabric of space and time. I am beyond Physics. I am above God.

Absolutely.
Free.
Will.

I can be convinced of this fairly easy, for someone above God. I'm at work. Could you have a nice Tandoori lunch waiting for me on my dining table?

I

Matthew 4:7
Deuteronomy 6:16
Luke 4:12

[Skepdick]

Absolutely.
Free.
Will.

Mill on this for a while then...

Can an absolutely free will freely choose to give up their absolute freedom? Can you choose to become a determinist?

So far, all your ramblings seem to imply that the answer is "No... you can't choose it."

[Iwannaplato]

Matthew 4:7
Deuteronomy 6:16
Luke 4:12

I appreciate the admonitions, but this is no mere deity. This is something above God. Such an entity can't be tempted.

[Wizard22]

Exactly Moral responsibility undermines free will.

No it doesn't, moral responsibility is the basis of free-will.

You are contradicting yourself...

Can you; or can't you pick & choose your moral responsibility?

Choice is moral responsibility.

You disagree with everybody, but especially - you disagree with yourself.

I disagree with you, not myself.

[Wizard22]

I can be convinced of this fairly easy, for someone above God. I'm at work. Could you have a nice Tandoori lunch waiting for me on my dining table?

I

Yes

[Wizard22]

Mill on this for a while then...

Can an absolutely free will freely choose to give up their absolute freedom? Can you choose to become a determinist?

So far, all your ramblings seem to imply that the answer is "No... you can't choose it."

Yes, most people renounce their Free-Will, of course. Why do you think they call themselves Determinists?

The real problem is...how do you actually go about doing that?

Can you force yourself to forget the most memorable aspects of your life?

[Skepdick]

Choice is moral responsibility.

No, it isn't. Free choice is the freedom to do anything you want.

Which includes the freedom to abdicate moral responsibility.

I disagree with you, not myself.

No. You are disagreeing with both of us.

That's why you can't make up your mind on whether a free will is free from moral responsibility.

[Iwannaplato]

I can be convinced of this fairly easy, for someone above God. I'm at work. Could you have a nice Tandoori lunch waiting for me on my dining table?

I

Yes

Great. I'm heading home now. Thanks.

[Skepdick]

I can be convinced of this fairly easy, for someone above God. I'm at work. Could you have a nice Tandoori lunch waiting for me on my dining table?

I

Yes

Great. I'm heading home now. Thanks.

I think you should make alternative lunch plans...

I think he meant yes (he could), not yes (he will).

[Iwannaplato]

Yes, most people renounce their Free-Will, of course. Why do you think they call themselves Determinists?

It is nowhere near most people who call themselves determinists. And Free-will, if it exists, cannot be renounced, or, better put, the renouncing would have no effect. They'd still be free.

The real problem is...how do you actually go about doing that?

Can you force yourself to forget the most memorable aspects of your life?

Wait, some parts of life show more free will than others. Free will can't have degrees.

One could strive for more freedom. One could fight back against external limitations.

But whatever you choose to do is a sign of free will if free will is the case. Every decision, even that of saying yes to a shitty tyrant of a boss. That's free will. There are no moments in a life that are not exuding free will, to the same degree.

This is where I think you are the other free willers are confused here.

YOu see free will is a certain attitude and set of actions in relation to authority.

Determinists can fight for their rights, resist authority, tell their bosses to go fuck themselves without in the slightest way being a hypocrite as a determinist.

George has a lot of free will.

That's a very confused statement.

My favorite moments in my life were when I enacted free will.

That's a very confused statement.

If you choose to knuckle under authority, that's a choice. If we have free will you exhibited as much free will as the guy who ran at the King with a sword.

You seem to view free will as a character trait: he was noble and free will.

Confused.

It's describing something fundamental about our nature and the nature of reality. It may be a correct model. I maybe an incorrect model. But it's not a matter of degree or something some people have or don't have.

It's not a synonym for feisty.

[Iwannaplato]

Yes

Great. I'm heading home now. Thanks.

I think you should make alternative lunch plans...

I think he meant yes (he could), not yes (he will).

I'm so relieved that you said this. In the back of my mind - it's embarrassing to admit - I thought it was remotely possible I would not find the lunch I asked for. Oh, the disappointment in the disconfirmation of his magical all powerfulness. But now, regardless of what I find or do not find, I can consider the outcome as fitting his claims.

Though there is magic present here, regardless. For me that is.

I am surprised to find that I think he may actually believe what he said.