Authority and Autonomy

[Wizard22]

When I think of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, I consider how most people blame "The Government" or "God" or "Power" or "Nature" or "Chance", anything and everything except blaming themselves... so consider this redirection. It's easy to blame everybody else for your misfortunes. It's very difficult to blame yourself. Because blaming yourself leads to depression, over-thinking, stagnation, immobility, paralyzation, guilt, stress, panic, disease, and worse, depending on the severity of the blamed action or event. Blaming yourself is just hard; it necessarily requires and imposes a strict Ethical system for yourself. Because if *YOU* are the Cause of your life's misfortunes, or other people's misfortunes, then a great deal of effort, foresight, and choice is required from then on out about what you Ought to do, and what you Will do, in face of these Moral Responsibilities.

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

It's called "Confirmation Bias". It's called "Selective Reasoning". You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good. You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil. So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good? Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing, who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics? I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

[Iwannaplato]

When I think of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, I consider how most people blame "The Government" or "God" or "Power" or "Nature" or "Chance", anything and everything except blaming themselves... so consider this redirection. It's easy to blame everybody else for your misfortunes. It's very difficult to blame yourself.

This depends on your personality type. I would guess most of us have had a friend or family member who blamed themselves rather than the people who actually were wrong, bad, messing up, confused, had the power to make a change and so on.

And then there are all sorts of mixtures. I have managed to blame others for all sorts of things I shouldn't have and then also blamed myself for things I realized later I shouldn't have.

Because blaming yourself leads to depression, over-thinking, stagnation, immobility, paralyzation, guilt, stress, panic, disease, and worse, depending on the severity of the blamed action or event.

Yes, it can. You have to move from blaming yourself to getting at all the emotions and assumptions about life, yourself, people, God, the universe, what being good and bad are and more. All that emotional stuff and all those judgments about what is and must be true that, well, might not be.

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

Aiming blame outward as a habit is a problem. Aiming blame as a habit inward is a problem. Holding blame at either others or yourself is a problem. Blame aimed at oneself or aimed at others.....both human reactions. But if you maintain the position...then there a problem. People get settled and comfy with their blame positions, even if they hurt themselves and others. Can it shift, there's the rub.

It's called "Confirmation Bias". It's called "Selective Reasoning". You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good. You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil. So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good? Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing, who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics? I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

Well, some say Jesus, but I don't think so at all. Others might say Lucifer, but I don't think so at all. And I don't think it was Nietschze. I'll stop there, it'll be a list of me rejecting candidates.

I don't think there is someone. But I'm curious to see people's answers.

[Wizard22]

How can any person possibly differentiate between what is "actually caused" by oneself, by another, or by something else (like "Nature")?

IOW, how can any person be realistic or accurate about finding "The Cause" to something?

Where does your finger point to (where does your mind point to) first and foremost?

[phyllo]

“An ignorant person is inclined to blame others for his own misfortune. To blame oneself is proof of progress. But the wise man never has to blame another or himself.” - Epictetus

[Wizard22]

Have you lead a team of men before?

It's easy when you Win and are victorious. Everybody basks in the glory, despite the heroes who 'carry' most of the work. And that's the point—The Cause of the victory quickly gets lost in the details. Nobody really cares much about 'cause' in victory. Rather it's in Loss that 'cause', suddenly, becomes important. Is this how it is for everything then in life?

The Cause generally tends to, or only matters, in all the negative aspects of life?

The Cause only matters when damage, injury, death, hurt, hatred, suffering, pain...are involved?



When somebody is happy and healthy, do they then obsess about "The Cause" of it?...or do they simply live it?

So Causes, Causation, The Cause, refers to what is Negative, does it not? And those who obsess, do so out of Necessity?

Back to the premise—it's difficult when you Lose and have failed. Your team begins pointing the finger at one-another. And here is Human Nature. It's in the failure, the loss, shame, guilt, contempt, desire to separate, that "Causes" suddenly become the greatest importance. So what do humans do? Or even, any other Mammalian troop? I'll cut to the chase, the ending. Mammals, and Humans, both tend to pick-out a Whipping Boy, a Scapegoat. And "The Causes" are assigned to it, Blamed. It doesn't matter if the Whipping Boy actually caused the Loss. What matters is that Humans, or any Mammalian group, 'avenges' itself against its weakest link. This often is a deadly circumstance. If the Whipping Boy is whipped too harshly, beaten too grievously...



What's His name...?

The Whipping Boy of Human History??

[Wizard22]

This depends on your personality type. I would guess most of us have had a friend or family member who blamed themselves rather than the people who actually were wrong, bad, messing up, confused, had the power to make a change and so on.

And then there are all sorts of mixtures. I have managed to blame others for all sorts of things I shouldn't have and then also blamed myself for things I realized later I shouldn't have.

Reconsider your beliefs after my 'Whipping Boy' phenomenon is addressed.

Why does Blame fall upon some, more than others, or before another?

When a Father takes the blame for his Son...is it because the Father caused the action, or rather that he can endure the negative consequences that the son cannot? So, is that a matter of "personality type" after all?

Yes, it can. You have to move from blaming yourself to getting at all the emotions and assumptions about life, yourself, people, God, the universe, what being good and bad are and more. All that emotional stuff and all those judgments about what is and must be true that, well, might not be.

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

Aiming blame outward as a habit is a problem. Aiming blame as a habit inward is a problem. Holding blame at either others or yourself is a problem. Blame aimed at oneself or aimed at others.....both human reactions. But if you maintain the position...then there a problem. People get settled and comfy with their blame positions, even if they hurt themselves and others. Can it shift, there's the rub.

How does one 'accurately' blame then? If a child steals a cookie from the cookie jar, how does 'blame' fit into that picture? Is it the child's fault? Is it the parent's fault? Is there an "objective" solution to Blame & Causality here?

It's called "Confirmation Bias". It's called "Selective Reasoning". You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good. You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil. So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good? Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing, who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics? I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

Well, some say Jesus, but I don't think so at all.

Why not?

Others might say Lucifer, but I don't think so at all. And I don't think it was Nietschze. I'll stop there, it'll be a list of me rejecting candidates.

I don't think there is someone. But I'm curious to see people's answers.

Who has been Human History's "Whipping Boy" for 2023 years now?

What does the "AD" stand for, in 2023AD? What does that mean?

[Wizard22]

“An ignorant person is inclined to blame others for his own misfortune. To blame oneself is proof of progress. But the wise man never has to blame another or himself.” - Epictetus

Let's assume that there is no 'objective' blame. It's completely Artificial, Subjective.

What does that then imply about the world's major Religions, Morality in general, Ethics?

If you can Blame anybody you want for a car crash...then whom will you point your finger, phyllo??

[Impenitent]

pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name...

-Imp

[Iwannaplato]

How can any person possibly differentiate between what is "actually caused" by oneself, by another, or by something else (like "Nature")?

Yeah, I mean conservatives often blame the 60s and boomers for all sorts of problems, but what led to the 60s, the 50s that convervatives often point to as much better than various nows.

But then, sure sometimes I think one can blame people. I'm biking along and someone darts out onto the bike path and gets nipped by my bike. I blame them.

In some pure, ultimate, perfectly immaculate, permanent, absolute sense, probably not. But I think in everyday stuff blame can be both pretty natural and often easy to assign.

IOW, how can any person be realistic or accurate about finding "The Cause" to something?

How did you arrive at it here....

This is the end-result of liberalism-leftism-marxism and Democrat-dominated US culture and politics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWFlpCBMyIk

Where does your finger point to (where does your mind point to) first and foremost?

Me and God. Though often in specific moments me and other people, but I get why they, like me, are messed up.

[Iwannaplato]

Reconsider your beliefs after my 'Whipping Boy' phenomenon is addressed.

Tell me how you think I should reconsider it.

Why does Blame fall upon some, more than others, or before another?

All sorts of reasons.

When a Father takes the blame for his Son...is it because the Father caused the action, or rather that he can endure the negative consequences that the son cannot? So, is that a matter of "personality type" after all?

What's your argument/point?

Do you really think there aren't people who blame themselves too much?

How does one 'accurately' blame then?

Well, we do our best, mixtures of reasoning and intuition. Some are bad at this, in my estimation. Some are better. I doubt anyone is infallible.

If a child steals a cookie from the cookie jar, how does 'blame' fit into that picture? Is it the child's fault? Is it the parent's fault? Is there an "objective" solution to Blame & Causality here?

Again it would take more context for me to figure out how I might blame in that situation. If we are talking about out in real life, I think there are many situations where assigning blame is working fine. I can't solve all the problems in the world, and sometimes my blame (at myself and/or at others) comes out in a burst of emotion and then it's done. I'm not sure where you are heading with all this and I'm interested.

I don't consider blame some final scientific proposition on the source of all causes. I consider it a process reaction that comes up. It can cause problems, especially with rigid patterns.

Why not?

With Jesus? If that's who you mean, let me know why. If it's not who you mean, I'm not going to waste my time on the issue.

Who has been Human History's "Whipping Boy" for 2023 years now?

Well, it seems like you think it was Jesus. Let us know how. But he is not Human History's Whipping boy. Christians, for example, do not blame him for things (except perhaps when something horrible happens and they blame God/Jesus. But they generally regret that and doctrine goes against it. I doubt many Chinese blame Jesus for much.

He's put on an extremely high pedastal by many, even by many non-beleivers who nevertheless think he was a cool guy. N

What does the "AD" stand for, in 2023AD? What does that mean?

that's easy enough to google yourself.

[Peter Kropotkin]

for me, the key word isn't authority, but autonomy.....
if you had just said authority, I probably would have
ignored this thread...

AUTONOMY: the right or condition of self-government...
a self-governing country or region...
freedom from external control or influence; independence...

2. In Kantian moral philosophy.. the capacity of an agent to act
in accordance with objective morality rather than under the
influence of desires....

from the Greek autonomia, from autonomos "having ones' own laws'
from autos "self'' + nomos "law''

and the entire point of the Enlightenment was to free human beings
from being controlled by others... in a religious sense...
not a political sense... the object of the attacks of the Enlightenment,
was the church.. not the state... that happened a few years later...

right from the beginning of our existence, was the indoctrinations
of the family, state, religion, media, education... as to who
to obey... and different families and different groups, had different
emphasis... some emphasis the family as the primary group to
obey, some the state and others were, god/religious...
and in this, we have race, country, creed.. as being one way we
emphasis this obeying...

and in the 200 plus years since the Enlightenment, we still haven't
worked out this autonomy bit yet...

so what does autonomy look like in this day and age of
"big brother"

Kropotkin

[iambiguous]

When I think of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, I consider how most people blame "The Government" or "God" or "Power" or "Nature" or "Chance", anything and everything except blaming themselves... so consider this redirection. It's easy to blame everybody else for your misfortunes. It's very difficult to blame yourself. Because blaming yourself leads to depression, over-thinking, stagnation, immobility, paralyzation, guilt, stress, panic, disease, and worse, depending on the severity of the blamed action or event. Blaming yourself is just hard; it necessarily requires and imposes a strict Ethical system for yourself. Because if *YOU* are the Cause of your life's misfortunes, or other people's misfortunes, then a great deal of effort, foresight, and choice is required from then on out about what you Ought to do, and what you Will do, in face of these Moral Responsibilities.

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

It's called "Confirmation Bias". It's called "Selective Reasoning". You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good. You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil. So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good? Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing, who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics? I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

All of these Capital Letter words.

So, assuming that we do have Autonomy, let's agree on a particular set of circumstances. A context in which some here are likely to define and to deduce conflicting assessments of what these words ought to mean. Philosophically as it were.

Let's take those definitions and deductions down to Earth and note how "for all practical purposes" they are applicable when the time comes to, say, pass legislation in a community prescribing and proscribing actual sets of behaviors.

As most know here, I'm inclined to use abortion as the context. It literally revolves around life and death, almost everyone is familiar with it, and it generates some of the most explosive newspaper headlines.

So...

Mary aborts her unborn baby/clump of cells. What of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, Government, God, Power, Nature, Chance, Confirmation Bias, Selective Reasoning, Bad, Evil, Man, Morals, Ethics, His then?

Or choose another context.

Or, once again, am I missing the point about "Serious Philosophy" here too?

[phyllo]

Let's assume that there is no 'objective' blame. It's completely Artificial, Subjective.

I'm not sure what subjective and objective have to do with it.

What does that then imply about the world's major Religions, Morality in general, Ethics?

You're lumping together fortune, misfortune with religion, morality, ethics. These are very different.

You can be moral and ethical but still have misfortune. The "Why do bad things happen to good people?" thing.

If you can Blame anybody you want for a car crash...then whom will you point your finger, phyllo??

"if you can blame anybody" doesn't make any rational sense. Obviously you can't blame just anybody if you are assigning blame.

I don't think I'm pointing my finger at anybody.

And I think you are lumping together 'blame" and 'cause' as if they are the same thing. Only in sloppy thinking and language are they the same. 'Blame' is the assignment of responsibility, cause is not.

A worn tire may be one cause of an accident but it doesn't merit blame.

[Age]

When I think of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, I consider how most people blame "The Government" or "God" or "Power" or "Nature" or "Chance", anything and everything except blaming themselves... so consider this redirection. It's easy to blame everybody else for your misfortunes. It's very difficult to blame yourself.

But it is NOT 'hard' to so-call 'blame' "oneself". However, if one says or thinks doing so is 'hard', then maybe 'blame' is the wrong word here. See, it is ACTUALLY VERY simple and 'easy' to accept, as well as take, responsibility for what one does. Although it is also very obvious that because of the way adult human beings have been living, hitherto when this is being written, children grow up LEARNING TO BLAME "others" while also NOT LEARNING how TO ACCEPT and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY "themselves".

Because blaming yourself leads to depression, over-thinking, stagnation, immobility, paralyzation, guilt, stress, panic, disease, and worse, depending on the severity of the blamed action or event.

So-called 'blaming' "oneself" does NOT necessarily lead to 'these things' AT ALL. But, if an adult is finding that ANY of 'these things' happen or occur when they 'blame' "them self", then I suggest that they just ACCEPT and TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY, INSTEAD. And, if doing so while seeking to CHANGE, for the better, what they WILL FIND will be the EXACT OPPOSITE of 'those things'. In fact what they WILL UNCOVER, DISCOVER, LEARN, FIND, and SEE WILL BE Truly REVEALING, and REWARDING.

Blaming yourself is just hard; it necessarily requires and imposes a strict Ethical system for yourself.

Here we can CLEARLY SEE, either:

1. A 'cop out', for just NOT doing the 'Right thing'. Or,

2 A reason as to WHY NOT USE the 'blame' word, and instead to ACCEPT and TAKE ACTUAL RESPONSIBILITY, itself.

Because if *YOU* are the Cause of your life's misfortunes, or other people's misfortunes, then a great deal of effort, foresight, and choice is required from then on out about what you Ought to do, and what you Will do, in face of these Moral Responsibilities.

WHAT?

As an adult human being WHO ELSE could even possibly be RESPONSIBLE FOR 'you'?

And, if ANY adult human being even THINKS that there is or even could be someone, or something, ELSE 'responsible' for absolutely ANY 'thing', then this SHOWS and PROVES just how MUCH LACKING IN 'responsibility' these adult human beings HAD, back then, and thus EXPLAINS WHY it took SO LONG to REACH and ACHIEVE the Truly 'Peaceful and Harmonious world'.

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

AND what are, relatively, ALL of 'you', human beings, POINTING your fingers AT, EXACTLY?

Also, WHY do you say 99.999% of humanity does 'this'? Who are the one/s who do NOT do this FINGER POINTING?

It's called "Confirmation Bias".

'What' is, SUPPOSEDLY, called 'confirmation bias', (with capital 'C' and capital 'B')?

Is the POINTING OF your FINGER ELSEWHERE' called 'Confirmation Bias'?

If so, then HOW and WHY, EXACTLY?

It's called "Selective Reasoning".

So, if so-called 'POINTING OF your FINGER ELSEWHERE' is called 'Confirmation Bias', then the 'POINTING OF your FINGER ELSEWHERE' is ALSO, according to "wizard22's" "logic" is ALSO called 'selective reasoning', (with a capital 'S' and a capital 'B').

You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good.

'you', "wizard22", talk here as though 'you' do NOT BLAME ANY 'thing' else, NEVER POINT your FINGER ELSEWHERE, and NEVER POINT your FINGER TOWARD "yourself" when taking credit for the so-called 'good', (with a capital 'g').

You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil.

WHY do 'you', "wizard22", USE the 'you' word here?

It is like 'you', "wizard22", ARE IMPLYING that "others" do some 'thing', which 'you', "yourself", would NEVER DO.

So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good?

Just a Truly 'grown up' and 'mature' one. That is; one who is JUST, Truly RESPONSIBLE.

Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing,

YES, and NOT just 'think' of one, but ALSO KNOW OF one.

who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics?

But doing the OPPOSITE is NOT 'instinctual' NOR even so-called 'common instinct'.

In fact, being Dishonest, BLAMING "others", and/or POINTING the FINGER ELSEWHERE is NOT 'instinctual' NOR a 'common instinct' AT ALL. 'These things' ARE LEARNED 'behaviors', or more correctly, LEARNED 'misbehaviors'. And, If and when one ENDS UP DOING 'these things', then this is just solely BECAUSE of living IN a 'Wrong life'.

Which, OBVIOUSLY, ALL of 'you', human beings, ARE, in the days when this is being written anyway.

I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

WHY do 'you' a capital 'm' here for the 'man' word?

[Age]

When I think of Blame, Morality, Justice, Agency, I consider how most people blame "The Government" or "God" or "Power" or "Nature" or "Chance", anything and everything except blaming themselves... so consider this redirection. It's easy to blame everybody else for your misfortunes. It's very difficult to blame yourself.

This depends on your personality type.

And, to 'you', "iwwanaplato", one is BORN WITH a so-called 'personality type', right?

If yes, then 'this' also IMPLIES that one is ALWAYS depended UPON the so-called term, 'their personality type'. Which ALSO IMPLIES that one can NOT CHANGE, for the BETTER, NOR even for the WORSE.

I would guess most of us have had a friend or family member who blamed themselves rather than the people who actually were wrong, bad, messing up, confused, had the power to make a change and so on.

Do you have AN example that you HAVE and would like to SHARE here WITH us. So that we COULD look AT 'it', and DISCUSS 'it'?

If no, then okay.

And then there are all sorts of mixtures. I have managed to blame others for all sorts of things I shouldn't have and then also blamed myself for things I realized later I shouldn't have.

AGAIN, WILL you PROVIDE us WITH ANY examples?

Because blaming yourself leads to depression, over-thinking, stagnation, immobility, paralyzation, guilt, stress, panic, disease, and worse, depending on the severity of the blamed action or event.

Yes, it can. You have to move from blaming yourself to getting at all the emotions and assumptions about life, yourself, people, God, the universe, what being good and bad are and more. All that emotional stuff and all those judgments about what is and must be true that, well, might not be.

Well, OBVIOUSLY, IF, when 'you' were children, were NOT GIVEN SO MUCH Wrong and Incorrect 'information', then 'you' would NOT have LEARNED SO MUCH Wrong and Incorrect 'knowledge',

It's easier just to shrug off all Blame, and point your finger elsewhere. Which is what 99.999% of humanity does, throughout life.

Aiming blame outward as a habit is a problem. Aiming blame as a habit inward is a problem. Holding blame at either others or yourself is a problem. Blame aimed at oneself or aimed at others.....both human reactions.

So, ONCE MORE, 'blame' MIGHT BE the Wrong word (to use) here? Or, the CONNOTATION of 'blame', which HAS and IS STILL being PASSED ON and THROUGH 'you', human beings, MAY itself BE Wrong here.

But if you maintain the position...then there a problem.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN 'these people', back then, did NOT even KNOW how to USE the 'problem' word Correctly, let alone KNOWING how to USE a lot of the other words, here.

People get settled and comfy with their blame positions, even if they hurt themselves and others. Can it shift, there's the rub.

OF COURSE 'it' CAN SHIFT.

In fact 'it' cannot NOT SHIFT.

But, SHIFT IN WHICH WAY, and IN WHAT DIRECTION, is some 'thing' BETTER to think ABOUT and ponder OVER.

It's called "Confirmation Bias". It's called "Selective Reasoning". You point toward yourself, when somebody needs to take credit for The Good. You point toward everybody else, when somebody needs to take credit for The Bad or Evil. So this is a very simple equation. What kind of Man, would point toward Himself when it comes to taking the entire world's Evil, and none of the Good? Can you think of a Man who would do such a thing, who would represent such an inversion of common instinct, Morals and Ethics? I think you can...think of such a Man.

What's His name?

Well, some say Jesus, but I don't think so at all. Others might say Lucifer, but I don't think so at all. And I don't think it was Nietschze. I'll stop there, it'll be a list of me rejecting candidates.

I don't think there is someone. But I'm curious to see people's answers.