Christianity

[Dubious]

. . . oh shit I forgot what I was going to say.

If only you could make that permanent!

[henry quirk]

I wanna know more about the...

idiot who sees, and understands, that what makes man man is Logos and that if God is anything at all it is the origin-point of Logos.

...cuz that person sounds like an outstanding human being.

[iambiguous]

This is what he can't escape. The fact that he himself knows that those videos are just another, "need proof that the Chirstian God exists? Then read the Christian Bible!!!" tautology.

The silliest question, posed by a person who doesn't accept evidence and worded with false assumptions about faith, and his assumption is that I can't "escape" it?

Bad news for you: the most basic, basic apologetics site will dispatch your "brilliant" question immediately. I need not bother. And no, things don't get smarter if you make them BIGGER. They just read like lunatic screaming.

Note to others...

Pick one:

1]

How can he not be a complete disgrace to Christianity -- a religion that proselytizes -- in refusing to save souls?

A man who can save souls with precisely the sort of proof mere mortals long for, but who refuses to note the most powerful video segments that convinced him that one can choose Christianity beyond a leap of faith or a wager.

This is what he can't escape. The fact that he himself knows that those videos are just another, "need proof that the Chirstian God exists? Then read the Christian Bible!!!" tautology.

2]

How can he not be a complete disgrace to Christianity -- a religion that proselytizes -- in refusing to save souls?

A man who can save souls with precisely the sort of proof mere mortals long for, but who refuses to note the most powerful video segments that convinced him that one can choose Christianity beyond a leap of faith or a wager.

This is what he can't escape. The fact that he himself knows that those videos are just another, "need proof that the Chirstian God exists? Then read the Christian Bible!!!" tautology.

3]

How can he not be a complete disgrace to Christianity -- a religion that proselytizes -- in refusing to save souls?

A man who can save souls with precisely the sort of proof mere mortals long for, but who refuses to note the most powerful video segments that convinced him that one can choose Christianity beyond a leap of faith or a wager.

This is what he can't escape. The fact that he himself knows that those videos are just another, "need proof that the Chirstian God exists? Then read the Christian Bible!!!" tautology.

4]

How can he not be a complete disgrace to Christianity -- a religion that proselytizes -- in refusing to save souls?

A man who can save souls with precisely the sort of proof mere mortals long for, but who refuses to note the most powerful video segments that convinced him that one can choose Christianity beyond a leap of faith or a wager.

This is what he can't escape. The fact that he himself knows that those videos are just another, "need proof that the Chirstian God exists? Then read the Christian Bible!!!" tautology.

[iambiguous]

Got all that? You better. Why? Because, come Judgment Day, it's on the test!

Interesting that you bring this up! I have just updated the 20th through the 22nd chapters of the Email Course and there I deal directly on *Judgment Day*.

What acuasal connecting principle is working here?!

Any of the chapters pertain to this:

Look, my interest in discussing God and religion revolves primarily around the reason that God and religion exist in the first place: to connect the dots existentially between morality here and now and immortality and salvation there and then.

With you [as with phyllo], I am interested in how you connect the dots between the behaviors that you choose on this side of the grave pertaining to what you believe about the fate of "I" on the other side of it.

Then the part where you actually attempt to demonstrate -- again, even to yourself -- that what you believe in your head about this others who wish to be thought of as rational human beings are obligated to believe the same.

As this pertains further to particular circumstantial contexts where others who believe in conflicting assessments of objective morality are shown by you to be wrong. Why? Because of all these paths...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...yours really is the optimal road to Enlightenment.



Let the wiggling begin!!!

[iambiguous]

Religion is irrational, right?
Catholic Answers Staff

Question:

There’s no way you’re going to get me to buy Christianity. I’m a rationalist. Religion is irrational because it claims there’s a reality beyond reason. It’s based on blind faith.

Answer:
You may call yourself a rationalist, but that doesn’t make the positions you espouse reasonable. In fact, for all their talk about reason and all their railing against blind faith, rationalists are often among the most irrational people.

Christianity claims there are truths which are beyond the power of reason to demonstrate, but that doesn’t mean it’s irrational. There’s a difference between what is irrational (against reason) and what is suprarational (above reason).

Yes, that is certainly the case at times. We don't know how or why existence itself came to be. So, there are scientists and philosophers and theologians who grapple with it within their respective disciplines and offer possible explanations. Then based on the initial set of assumptions they make, those explanations will seem reasonable to some and unreasonable to others. But it's not like it can actually be established whether particular explanations are actually irrational. Same with the mystery of mind itself and the age-old antinomy that is determinism and free will. Some conclusions may seem more unreasonable than others but when do they become irrational?

It certainly seems that some answers -- existence started at the North Pole with Santa Claus -- would qualify, but there are lots of really "far out" conjectures that may seem irrational to some but not to others.

Consider this. Quantum physics is above the reasoning abilities of most four-year-olds. Does this make it, even for a four year old, irrational? No.

Come on, though, there's a huge gap between quantum physics and religion. No one is arguing that moral Commandments are derived from quarks or that immortality and salvation can be had once the quantum world is fully understood.

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I went to bed last night notably fractured & fragmented.

But I awoke this morning thoroughly integrated and re-assembled!

[Lacewing]

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

Agreed! A nice story, isn't it? Serves and comforts that person and their ego or fear very well: they are on the one, true, right path, which means that they, themselves (as believers), are right while all non-believers are wrong. As a believer, they are good too -- as they only wish to warn the non-believers of the doom for their souls. But where are all these judgments coming from? Not themselves, no... but from God! It is their God who is the only judge and the creator. Sure, that's what's going on.

Pay no attention to the human behind the curtain.

[iambiguous]

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

Agreed! A nice story, isn't it? Serves and comforts that person and their ego or fear very well: they are on the one, true, right path, which means that they, themselves (as believers), are right while all non-believers are wrong. As a believer, they are good too -- as they only wish to warn the non-believers of the doom for their souls. But where are all these judgments coming from? Not themselves, no... but from God! It is their God who is the only judge and the creator. Sure, that's what's going on.

Pay no attention to the human behind the curtain.

Basically, my own "rooted existentially in dasein" explanation for this still revolves around what I describe as the "psychology of objectivism":

1] For one reason or another [rooted largely in dasein], you are taught or come into contact with [through your upbringing, a friend, a book, an experience etc.] a worldview, a philosophy of life.

2] Over time, you become convinced that this perspective expresses and encompasses the most rational and objective truth. This truth then becomes increasingly more vital, more essential to you as a foundation, a justification, a celebration of all that is moral as opposed to immoral, rational as opposed to irrational.

3] Eventually, for some, they begin to bump into others who feel the same way; they may even begin to actively seek out folks similarly inclined to view the world in a particular way.

4] Some begin to share this philosophy with family, friends, colleagues, associates, Internet denizens; increasingly it becomes more and more a part of their life. It becomes, in other words, more intertwined in their personal relationships with others...it begins to bind them emotionally and psychologically.

5] As yet more time passes, they start to feel increasingly compelled not only to share their Truth with others but, in turn, to vigorously defend it against any and all detractors as well.

6] For some, it can reach the point where they are no longer able to realistically construe an argument that disputes their own as merely a difference of opinion; they see it instead as, for all intents and purposes, an attack on their intellectual integrity...on their very Self.

7] Finally, a stage is reached [again for some] where the original philosophical quest for truth, for wisdom has become so profoundly integrated into their self-identity [professionally, socially, psychologically, emotionally] defending it has less and less to do with philosophy at all.

Of course, this varies considerably from person to person. But it still revolves mainly around the need to believe in something -- anything -- that allows then to anchor their Self in one or another God or No God moral font.

Psychologically, therefore, what matters most is not what they believe nearly as much as the fact that they have managed to think themselves into believing it. Or, as children, were indoctrinated into believing it. And [for some] manage to take it with them to the grave.

That's why, with those like IC, I'm always after them to demonstrate that what they do believe "in their head" can in fact be demonstrated to others as in fact true.

Thus, in my opinion, they often react to me as they do more heatedly. In other words, differently from how they react to those who share their belief in objectivism...but in an entirely different font. After all, with them, they do both agree that there is, in fact, a "One True Path" out there to be had. It's just that they always insist it is their own.

With me, however, I shift the focus from what they believe to how existentially they came to believe one thing rather than another. How that is derived more from the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein in the OPs here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

...than from anything that philosophers -- deontologists in particular -- are able to "think up" in the way of moral absolutes.

[seeds]

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

Agreed! A nice story, isn't it? Serves and comforts that person and their ego or fear very well...

And that, in a nutshell, is its momentary purpose.

As I have pointed out many times before, the world's religions are but mere "rafts" to help carry humans across the waters of earthly life.

We simply need a new raft whose riggings are more modern and up to date.
_______

[Lacewing]

7] Finally, a stage is reached [again for some] where the original philosophical quest for truth, for wisdom has become so profoundly integrated into their self-identity [professionally, socially, psychologically, emotionally] defending it has less and less to do with philosophy at all.

Yes! Good description of how it builds to this. The illusion of identity becomes armored to reject reason and destroy threats.

Psychologically, therefore, what matters most is not what they believe nearly as much as the fact that they have managed to think themselves into believing it. Or, as children, were indoctrinated into believing it. And [for some] manage to take it with them to the grave.

Agreed. Fearlessly exploring freely/honestly without agenda is not as easy, and may not be as appealing, as following constructs that appeal to one's sense of worth.

That's why, with those like IC, I'm always after them to demonstrate that what they do believe "in their head" can in fact be demonstrated to others as in fact true.

I think it's an entertaining spotlight to shine on them/us... but we will not and cannot demonstrate anything because it's based on imagination and illusion and there simply is nothing (as you know) to show or reveal. We would rather die than publicly admit if we have been wrong (or foolish) all along, so we simply refuse to ever acknowledge it... and no one can make us! The more we ignore and deny, the more entrenched we become.

This is how imagination is so powerful. People create whole worlds with it. Children recognize when they (themselves) are pretending... and they see that they can keep trying different things. But adults can become fixated on maintaining certain creations and being shackled to their identities.

[Lacewing]

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

Agreed! A nice story, isn't it? Serves and comforts that person and their ego or fear very well...

And that, in a nutshell, is its momentary purpose.

As I have pointed out many times before, the world's religions are but mere "rafts" to help carry humans across the waters of earthly life.

We simply need a new raft whose riggings are more modern and up to date.
_______

I love using the concepts of flowing and 'an ocean'. Yes, 'rafts' that keep us afloat and carry us along across something that seems so deep and immense. And it can be done very beautifully. I do not wish to push anyone out of their raft. But when you're comfortably floating in the ocean and riding the waves, the idea of getting in a raft is not appealing at all... and it seems rather ridiculous for someone to insist that their inflatable raft is more divine than being in the ocean itself. So many perspectives from which to see... and so many ways to travel.

[Dubious]

Instead, for those like me, what seems at least to be unreasonable is the belief that of all these paths, your own is the One True Path to morality, immortality and salvation.

Agreed! A nice story, isn't it? Serves and comforts that person and their ego or fear very well...

And that, in a nutshell, is its momentary purpose.

As I have pointed out many times before, the world's religions are but mere "rafts" to help carry humans across the waters of earthly life.

We simply need a new raft whose riggings are more modern and up to date.

That's precisely what I, numerous times, tried to convey to AJ, that going backwards is not an option. However there are still those who can or strive to swim independently to the opposite and final shore from whose bourne no traveller returns as Shakespeare mentioned in Hamlet and not again be crowded onto a vessel in the service of a new paradigm.

Melville expressed it thus...

Glimpses do ye seem to see of that mortally intolerable truth; that all deep, earnest thinking is but the intrepid effort of the soul to keep the open independence of her sea; while the wildest winds of heaven and earth conspire to cast her on the treacherous, slavish shore?

But as in landlessness alone resides highest truth, shoreless, indefinite as God- so better is it to perish in that howling infinite, than be ingloriously dashed upon the lee, even if that were safety!

[Lacewing]

Melville expressed it thus...

Glimpses do ye seem to see of that mortally intolerable truth; that all deep, earnest thinking is but the intrepid effort of the soul to keep the open independence of her sea; while the wildest winds of heaven and earth conspire to cast her on the treacherous, slavish shore?

But as in landlessness alone resides highest truth, shoreless, indefinite as God- so better is it to perish in that howling infinite, than be ingloriously dashed upon the lee, even if that were safety!

Beautiful!

I would also like to suggest (although less poetic) regarding potential, that one may act upon a stage, preach from a platform, tell stories, hide away in a cave, dance with energies, surf the waves, etc., and these are all just varying techniques for experiencing 'existence'. There need not be a destination in a great ocean of energy, and that ocean's parts operate not because of a leader (as imagined by human beings) but rather in interplay with all else.

[Dubious]

There need not be a destination in a great ocean of energy, and that ocean's parts operate not because of a leader (as imagined by human beings) but rather in interplay with all else.

Agree completely; everything including all our stories converge to synthesis in ways mysterious and unknown to us at this time, all themes whether minute or great or simply expressing opposites, conjoining into a grand polyphony which reveals itself without error. At the moment I'm reading Until the End of Time by Brian Greene who is, aside from his other talents, an outstanding writer.

This is a tiny quote from the beginning of the book...

...perhaps one day we will understand the workings of mind and matter so completely that all will be laid bare, from black holes to Beethoven, from quantum weirdness to Walt Whitman. But even without having anything remotely near that capacity, there is much to be gained by immersion in these stories - creative, scientific, imaginative....

I don't agree with all his conclusions, as expected, but it certainly activates one's neurons to consider alternatives and variations.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I’ve ordered some low thread-count tunics and some power-crystals on Amazon. Since I have Anazon Prime they arrive tomorrow! I’ll set to work immediately. I ain’t going backwards, I am riding the Winds of Change into Mankind’s future. Nothing and no one can stop me now!