Philosophical Realism's Mind-Independence is Absurd

[Flannel Jesus]

Why not? Most scientists are realists, and when we take QM literally, as a totally real thing, imo we probably end up with an extradimensional framework. The MWI imo was the first, rather inept attempt at an extradimensional interpretation, but it's often associated with nonsense like splitting universes and locality.

I thought the main motivation was that it preserved determinism.

The main motivation of many worlds, that I can see, is that it doesn't require collapse. With collapse, you have a system that's behaving according to quantum mechanical rules and then, at particular arbitrarily defined times, the general rules of quantum mechanics suddenly stop working and everything resolves to a singular value. Many worlds says, how about the rules of quantum mechanics just keep working, all the time, without ever stopping? Everything is quantum mechanical, measurement is a quantum mechanical process, and instead of treating measurement as this unique break of the rules, we just keep on applying qm to the thing that was measured, and the thing that's measuring it, and the person that reads that measurement and so on - that's the central idea to many worlds.

It's just sort of a happy consequence that that also happens to maintain (a very unique kind of) determinism. It's a unique kind of determinism because it's indistinguishable from randomness from the inside - it's like a weird meta determinism.

[Darkneos]

I neither said "events have already happened" in this discussion as that would be rather misleading, nor was I specifically talking about the MWI. Which is btw easily top 3 interpretation today.

I was surprised to see that a majority of qm cosmologists believe MWI is the case. I knew it was on the table, but didn't expect it to have so many adherents.

They don’t. Atla is mistaken again. Copenhagen is still the most widely accepted

[Iwannaplato]

The main motivation of many worlds, that I can see, is that it doesn't require collapse. With collapse, you have a system that's behaving according to quantum mechanical rules and then, at particular arbitrarily defined times, the general rules of quantum mechanics suddenly stop working and everything resolves to a singular value.

Perceived collapse locally, in one 'world', not collapse globally, but then there isn't superpostion in the usual sense either.

Many worlds says, how about the rules of quantum mechanics just keep working, all the time, without ever stopping? Everything is quantum mechanical, measurement is a quantum mechanical process, and instead of treating measurement as this unique break of the rules, we just keep on applying qm to the thing that was measured, and the thing that's measuring it, and the person that reads that measurement and so on - that's the central idea to many worlds.

I couldn't understand this part.

It's just sort of a happy consequence that that also happens to maintain (a very unique kind of) determinism. It's a unique kind of determinism because it's indistinguishable from randomness from the inside - it's like a weird meta determinism.

When I look at overviews in Stanford and wikipedia they both start early with the retaining of determinism. But that doesn't mean that's why Everett was first drawn to it or the problem he was hoping to solve: the getting rid of indeterminism.

I see it gets us away from the Copenhagen interpretation - that I knew - and thus away from a two realm physics, classical here, quantum there. (Makes me think of Jesus with the coin), lol).

In any case the neat 'barrier' between microscopic and macroscopic realms in relation to qm has been being eaten away at for years. They've managed to entangle objects the diameter of human hair. There are qm processes at work in bird navigation. Macroscopic objects have been put into superposition....
https://theinnerdetail.com/a-macroscopi ... ltaneously.

Perhaps things phenomena like the first and third depend on very specific, highly artificial set ups that must be created by scientists. Time will tell.

I don't feel like I know that the microscopic and macroscopic must behave the same (or must behave differently).

I don't think it's all sorted out.

[Darkneos]

Macroscopic isn't something they pulled out of their butts it's something that is actual in QM and I highly doubt you have a degree to be able to say otherwise.

Dude why don't you just try to support your belief with actual scientific evidence for once. WHERE, HOW is the world actually divided into "microscopic" and "macroscopic"?

Again, nothing about it says that events have already happened. Universal wave function is only a part of the many-worlds interpretation, which isn't really widely accepted as true. Even then the many worlds interpretation still doesn't support what you are claiming which just leads me to think you don't know what you're talking about. It says nothing about past, present or future. From what I can tell his version says that time does not "flow" meaning all this stuff isn't one, there is no future or past or even present. It's certainly weird. Even then it's still just one interpretation not really a fact.

You still wouldn't be able to influence or change the past though, that's not what he's saying with Many Worlds.

I neither said "events have already happened" in this discussion as that would be rather misleading, nor was I specifically talking about the MWI. Which is btw easily top 3 interpretation today.

Like...literally no one is saying what you're saying, I asked. I also have severe doubts you're getting what you're reading right.

Then you are, like, literally lying here. And I'm highly confident that while my understanding of QM may be mediocre, you've no idea what you're talking about.

You did say events already happened.

You also haven’t given evidence for saying they have abandoned macroscopic. Like I said, pretty much every physicist does this because that’s how quantum physics works. There’s macro and micro levels, the fact you don’t get that kinda has me doubting you know what you’re talking about.

Many World definitely posits alternate universes as well so I’m not sure why you’re saying it doesn’t. It just seems more evidence you don’t understand this because you either don’t have a degree or haven’t talked to people who do this. I have which is why it’s pretty easy to fact check this stuff.

Also many worlds isn’t even top 3 today. It used to be popular when we didn’t know much about QM but it’s fallen out of favor since.

[Flannel Jesus]

Many worlds says, how about the rules of quantum mechanics just keep working, all the time, without ever stopping? Everything is quantum mechanical, measurement is a quantum mechanical process, and instead of treating measurement as this unique break of the rules, we just keep on applying qm to the thing that was measured, and the thing that's measuring it, and the person that reads that measurement and so on - that's the central idea to many worlds.

I couldn't understand this part.

In a nutshell, a lot of qm centers around this idea that you have a wave function that defines the (superposition of) state of the system, and you have the Schrödinger equation which defines how the wave function evolves over time. Copenhagen interpretation says, at a certain point in time, there's no longer a wave function, there's a singular state - the wave function collapses to a singular state at this moment in time. MWI says, contrarily, let's just keep applying the Schrödinger equation to the wave function and see what happens.

[Darkneos]

The main motivation of many worlds, that I can see, is that it doesn't require collapse. With collapse, you have a system that's behaving according to quantum mechanical rules and then, at particular arbitrarily defined times, the general rules of quantum mechanics suddenly stop working and everything resolves to a singular value.

Perceived collapse locally, in one 'world', not collapse globally, but then there isn't superpostion in the usual sense either.

Many worlds says, how about the rules of quantum mechanics just keep working, all the time, without ever stopping? Everything is quantum mechanical, measurement is a quantum mechanical process, and instead of treating measurement as this unique break of the rules, we just keep on applying qm to the thing that was measured, and the thing that's measuring it, and the person that reads that measurement and so on - that's the central idea to many worlds.

I couldn't understand this part.

It's just sort of a happy consequence that that also happens to maintain (a very unique kind of) determinism. It's a unique kind of determinism because it's indistinguishable from randomness from the inside - it's like a weird meta determinism.

When I look at overviews in Stanford and wikipedia they both start early with the retaining of determinism. But that doesn't mean that's why Everett was first drawn to it or the problem he was hoping to solve: the getting rid of indeterminism.

I see it gets us away from the Copenhagen interpretation - that I knew - and thus away from a two realm physics, classical here, quantum there. (Makes me think of Jesus with the coin), lol).

In any case the neat 'barrier' between microscopic and macroscopic realms in relation to qm has been being eaten away at for years. They've managed to entangle objects the diameter of human hair. There are qm processes at work in bird navigation. Macroscopic objects have been put into superposition....
https://theinnerdetail.com/a-macroscopi ... ltaneously.

Perhaps things phenomena like the first and third depend on very specific, highly artificial set ups that must be created by scientists. Time will tell.

I don't feel like I know that the microscopic and macroscopic must behave the same (or must behave differently).

I don't think it's all sorted out.

I don’t think you read your link as it proves you wrong towards the end.

It’s also worth noting that these objects are in a lab under extreme conditions that don’t usually occur in our every day lives. So this doesn’t really prove anything. The time they are able to is also less than a blink.

The measurements of quantum vibrations may impart important bounds on possible modifications of quantum theory that could explain why we do not see quantum features in everyday life, meaning why there exists classical and quantum world and why it doesn’t overlap.

So I honestly think y’all are running away with something you don’t really understand.

[Atla]

You did say events already happened.

In this discussion, where? I can't find it. I remember saying that past present and future are one, in other words quantum mechanics can be seen as timeless/atemporal.

It's kinda beyond me how you jumped to "life is pointless" from there to be honest.

You also haven’t given evidence for saying they have abandoned macroscopic. Like I said, pretty much every physicist does this because that’s how quantum physics works. There’s macro and micro levels, the fact you don’t get that kinda has me doubting you know what you’re talking about.

So you have no evidence. I don't have to give any evidence, because you are the one claiming that there was an actual known macro/micro divide in the known universe in the first place.

Scientists can only "abandon" something that was there to begin with. But this was just something instrumentalists pulled out of their backsides, just like "interaction" was. It was a useful approximation for working physicists, but fundamentally a lie.

Many World definitely posits alternate universes as well so I’m not sure why you’re saying it doesn’t. It just seems more evidence you don’t understand this because you either don’t have a degree or haven’t talked to people who do this. I have which is why it’s pretty easy to fact check this stuff.

Ffs I didn't say that MWI doesn't posit alternate "universes". This one went over your head too. (And let's not even get into how the many worlds of the MWI and most multiverse ideas are probably not even the same thing.)

Also many worlds isn’t even top 3 today. It used to be popular when we didn’t know much about QM but it’s fallen out of favor since.

Lmao the MWI has become a lot more popular in the LAST 20-30 YEARS and is easily top 3 now.

[Darkneos]

You did say events already happened.

In this discussion, where? I can't find it. I remember saying that past present and future are one, in other words quantum mechanics can be seen as timeless/atemporal.

It's kinda beyond me how you jumped to "life is pointless" from there to be honest.

You also haven’t given evidence for saying they have abandoned macroscopic. Like I said, pretty much every physicist does this because that’s how quantum physics works. There’s macro and micro levels, the fact you don’t get that kinda has me doubting you know what you’re talking about.

So you have no evidence. I don't have to give any evidence, because you are the one claiming that there was an actual known macro/micro divide in the known universe in the first place.

Scientists can only "abandon" something that was there to begin with. But this was just something instrumentalist pulled out of their asses, just like "interaction" was. It was a useful approximation for working physicists, but fundamentally a lie.

Many World definitely posits alternate universes as well so I’m not sure why you’re saying it doesn’t. It just seems more evidence you don’t understand this because you either don’t have a degree or haven’t talked to people who do this. I have which is why it’s pretty easy to fact check this stuff.

Ffs I didn't say that MWI doesn't posit alternate "universes". This one went over your head too. (And let's not even get into how the many world of the MWI and most multiverse ideas are probably not even the same thing.)

Also many worlds isn’t even top 3 today. It used to be popular when we didn’t know much about QM but it’s fallen out of favor since.

Lmao the MWI has become a lot more popular in the LAST 20-30 YEARS and is easily top 3 now.

I think this issue was firmly resolved by nonlocality. You "bring it into existence" or how I would rather view it, its "eigenstate-ness correlates with your/our eigenstate-ness" 10 years ago. So it happens "retroactively" or how I would rather view it, spacetime may be a weakly emergent property, time is an illusion on this level.

If the light was emitted 10 billion years ago, this still works all the same. It can appear from our everyday perspective that we can choose from a limited set of possibilites, what happened 10 billion years ago.

Which is absolutely mindblowing of course, if more people understood this new picture of reality, philosophy forums would be on fire.

Here. The life being pointless is kinda an easy jump from that point.

So you have no evidence. I don't have to give any evidence, because you are the one claiming that there was an actual known macro/micro divide in the known universe in the first place.

Scientists can only "abandon" something that was there to begin with. But this was just something instrumentalist pulled out of their asses, just like "interaction" was. It was a useful approximation for working physicists, but fundamentally a lie.

Considering how haven’t given any and I have actually spoken to people who do this stuff along with the math there is no reason to believe what you think here. This isn’t instrumentalism pulling something out of their ass, it’s just you who doesn’t want to accept it. Same with interaction. You’re trying to introduce philosophy where it doesn’t really work and just mucking physics in the process.

You did say MWI doesn’t posit alternate universes, which is why some view it as unfalsifiable. And yes it’s pretty much the multiverse idea.

Lmao the MWI has become a lot more popular in the LAST 20-30 YEARS and is easily top 3 now.

Kinda shows me you’re out of the loop in the scientific community. The more we know about QM the less popular it’s become.

[Darkneos]

But as I have said before talking about QM without citing math is just noise, utterly meaningless.

[Atla]

Here. The life being pointless is kinda an easy jump from that point.

No it's not there. If anything, from an everyday instrumentalist point of view, it's as if we would establish both the past and the future from the present.

Considering how haven’t given any and I have actually spoken to people who do this stuff along with the math there is no reason to believe what you think here. This isn’t instrumentalism pulling something out of their ass, it’s just you who doesn’t want to accept it. Same with interaction. You’re trying to introduce philosophy where it doesn’t really work and just mucking physics in the process.

I don't know who you talked to, because other physicists nowadays are "dismantling" this imagined macro/micro boundary. The evidence is against your belief, it's that simple. And there NEVER was any actual mechanism for such a divide identified.

As for interaction, some consider that idea to be directly refuted even, by the quantum eraser experiments, where additional interactions are used to "restore" wave patterns.
That's why many physicists have retreated from talking about "interaction" to talking about "which-path information" now.

You did say MWI doesn’t posit alternate universes, which is why some view it as unfalsifiable.

And yet you won't be able to quote me saying this either, right?

And yes it’s pretty much the multiverse idea.

Again no, the MWI is pretty much about the universal superposition of our universe, which is a kind of multiverse, but not the typical one.

Kinda shows me you’re out of the loop in the scientific community. The more we know about QM the less popular it’s become.

The opposite is true heh, someone is seriously out of the loop here.

[Atla]

There are qm processes at work in bird navigation.

Yeah there is this whole new field of quantum biology now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

I once tried to understand how quantum photosynthesis might work, and what that could mean. I concluded that I would need to spend way too much time on that one topic. Maybe if I'll have enough time someday, I'll revisit it.

Enzymes, DNA mutation, smell etc. Microtubules? Humanity is just starting to understand quantum mechanics, while the biosphere already seems to be at least partially quantum-based. I think it's quite likely that what quamtum biology knows now is just the tip of the iceberg.

Birds keeping quantum entangled particles in their bodies, and using them for navigation. Such things are happening at room temperature, in "fuzzy" environments, not so long ago this was thought to be impossible.

[Darkneos]

Here. The life being pointless is kinda an easy jump from that point.

No it's not there. If anything, from an everyday instrumentalist point of view, it's as if we would establish both the past and the future from the present.

Considering how haven’t given any and I have actually spoken to people who do this stuff along with the math there is no reason to believe what you think here. This isn’t instrumentalism pulling something out of their ass, it’s just you who doesn’t want to accept it. Same with interaction. You’re trying to introduce philosophy where it doesn’t really work and just mucking physics in the process.

I don't know who you talked to, because other physicists nowadays are "dismantling" this imagined macro/micro boundary. The evidence is against your belief, it's that simple. And there NEVER was any actual mechanism for such a divide identified.

As for interaction, some consider that idea to be directly refuted even, by the quantum eraser experiments, where additional interactions are used to "restore" wave patterns.
That's why many physicists have retreated from talking about "interaction" to talking about "which-path information" now.

You did say MWI doesn’t posit alternate universes, which is why some view it as unfalsifiable.

And yet you won't be able to quote me saying this either, right?

And yes it’s pretty much the multiverse idea.

Again no, the MWI is pretty much about the universal superposition of our universe, which is a kind of multiverse, but not the typical one.

Kinda shows me you’re out of the loop in the scientific community. The more we know about QM the less popular it’s become.

The opposite is true heh, someone is seriously out of the loop here.

Life being pointless if everything already happened is a very easy jump from what you mentioned. Anyone could see that.

They aren’t dismantling the macro-micro boundary, again. There are still differences that inhibit quantum phenomenon at our level of reality. So far the link I’ve seen you guys give is under extreme conditions in a lab and not in our day to day lives, so you’re jumping the gun here. Even that last one says there is still such a think so I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you mean.

There has been an is an identifier for this, because they all pretty much use it. Like I said, talk to people about it. Also the quantum eraser experiment doesn’t refute the idea of interaction. This is what I mean about talking about this stuff without a degree.

Again no, the MWI is pretty much about the universal superposition of our universe, which is a kind of multiverse, but not the typical one.

No it’s literally talking about other possible worlds to account for the branching possibilities. You don’t even know the theory you’re quoting.

The opposite is true heh, someone is seriously out of the loop here.

Highly unlikely to be me since a quick google search proves you wrong. Not to mention I’ve spoken to people who ACTUALLY a know what this stuff means.

[Darkneos]

There are qm processes at work in bird navigation.

Yeah there is this whole new field of quantum biology now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

I once tried to understand how quantum photosynthesis might work, and what that could mean. I concluded that I would need to spend way too much time on that one topic. Maybe if I'll have enough time someday, I'll revisit it.

Enzymes, DNA mutation, smell etc. Microtubules? Humanity is just starting to understand quantum mechanics, while the biosphere already seems to be at least partially quantum-based. I think it's quite likely that what quamtum biology knows now is just the tip of the iceberg.

Birds keeping quantum entangled particles in their bodies, and using them for navigation. Such things are happening at room temperature, in "fuzzy" environments, not so long ago this was thought to be impossible.

You’re jumping too far ahead there.

A lot of the applications are couched in unknowns and maybes. We can’t say anything about the biosphere. They also don’t keep quantum entangled particles in their bodies, you misread that section of the link…again.

But again this is what happens when you have someone without a degree talking about this stuff.

[Atla]

Life being pointless if everything already happened is a very easy jump from what you mentioned. Anyone could see that.

Seems to me as: physics was dead deterministic before QM, and that didn't bother you. But now that under some interpretations of QM, looking at it from the everyday human perspective, maybe we do have some influence over our fate, you see this as life being pointless, and anyone could see this?

They aren’t dismantling the macro-micro boundary, again. There are still differences that inhibit quantum phenomenon at our level of reality. So far the link I’ve seen you guys give is under extreme conditions in a lab and not in our day to day lives, so you’re jumping the gun here. Even that last one says there is still such a think so I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you mean.

There has been an is an identifier for this, because they all pretty much use it. Like I said, talk to people about it.

Again: show the scientific EVIDENCE for these inhibiting factors. Heh-heh

If it's anything more than circular handwaving about macroscopic objects and complexity and environments and degrees of freedom and whatever, the Nobel is yours.

Also the quantum eraser experiment doesn’t refute the idea of interaction. This is what I mean about talking about this stuff without a degree.

That's just, like, your interpretation.

No it’s literally talking about other possible worlds to account for the branching possibilities. You don’t even know the theory you’re quoting.

YES OF COURSE IT DOES.
Wow it really went 100 miles over his head..

Highly unlikely to be me since a quick google search proves you wrong. Not to mention I’ve spoken to people who ACTUALLY a know what this stuff means.

No, google doesn't prove me wrong.
And at this point I doubt that the people you talked to actually knew what they were talking about, or you just misunderstood them.

[Atla]

There are qm processes at work in bird navigation.

Yeah there is this whole new field of quantum biology now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology

I once tried to understand how quantum photosynthesis might work, and what that could mean. I concluded that I would need to spend way too much time on that one topic. Maybe if I'll have enough time someday, I'll revisit it.

Enzymes, DNA mutation, smell etc. Microtubules? Humanity is just starting to understand quantum mechanics, while the biosphere already seems to be at least partially quantum-based. I think it's quite likely that what quamtum biology knows now is just the tip of the iceberg.

Birds keeping quantum entangled particles in their bodies, and using them for navigation. Such things are happening at room temperature, in "fuzzy" environments, not so long ago this was thought to be impossible.

You’re jumping too far ahead there.

A lot of the applications are couched in unknowns and maybes. We can’t say anything about the biosphere. They also don’t keep quantum entangled particles in their bodies, you misread that section of the link…again.

But again this is what happens when you have someone without a degree talking about this stuff.

Now science isn't allowed to study the biosphere either because it finds facts that disagree with your BS?

And why is "entangled radical pair mechanism", "entangled electron pair" not related to entanglement? I mean this is indeed not certain knowledge but it's literally written there and you say it isn't. The theory of European robins using spin-entanglement has been around for a while.