Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

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phyllo
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by phyllo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:44 pm Just googled 'mein kampf extracts'. The real question is how anyone could possibly wade through that monumental dead-weight of incomprehensible pomposity. The literary equivalent of black pudding or a black hole. I refuse to believe that anyone here has read it. It's one of those books that people only pretend to have read--like Finnegan's Wake, the Bone People, or pretty much any Booker prize winner...
The book was given to every newlywed couple in Germany.

Most of them didn't read it. If they had, then they might have avoided a lot of pain, death and destruction.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

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phyllo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:49 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:44 pm Just googled 'mein kampf extracts'. The real question is how anyone could possibly wade through that monumental dead-weight of incomprehensible pomposity. The literary equivalent of black pudding or a black hole. I refuse to believe that anyone here has read it. It's one of those books that people only pretend to have read--like Finnegan's Wake, the Bone People, or pretty much any Booker prize winner...
The book was given to every newlywed couple in Germany.

Most of them didn't read it. If they had, then they might have avoided a lot of pain, death and destruction.
It's unreadable.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Constantine wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:29 am I've been noticing massive parallels between Hitler and the Woke movement. Both do pogroms, intimidation, virtue signaling and are open to Socialism. Both are ethnic centric beliefs systems proclaiming a historically aggrieved status to one ethnic group, placing blame on the other, and scape goating it for current issues. Both demand repayment, either in blood, reparations or living space.
Actually, "Nazi" means "National Socialist."

Hitler wasn't just "open to" Socialism: he was the chief proponent of a particular kind of Socialism, a Socialism based on national identity and genetics. And "fascist" comes from the Latin word meaning "a bundle of sticks tied together for strength," which is the core idea behind Socialism, i.e. collectivization.

Wokies are the same: they advocate "binding together" under a single, national or global authoritarian government, which they imagine will benignly and paternalistically give them free everything and save the planet at the same time. And yes, they do all the things you point out were hallmarks of Nazism, except limit their ideology to nation.
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phyllo
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by phyllo »

And "fascist" comes from the Latin word meaning "a bundle of sticks tied together for strength," which is the core idea behind Socialism, i.e. collectivization.
I bet the Etruscans didn't realize that they were promoting socialism when they came up with the fasces.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:53 pm
phyllo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:49 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:44 pm Just googled 'mein kampf extracts'. The real question is how anyone could possibly wade through that monumental dead-weight of incomprehensible pomposity. The literary equivalent of black pudding or a black hole. I refuse to believe that anyone here has read it. It's one of those books that people only pretend to have read--like Finnegan's Wake, the Bone People, or pretty much any Booker prize winner...
The book was given to every newlywed couple in Germany.

Most of them didn't read it. If they had, then they might have avoided a lot of pain, death and destruction.
It's unreadable.
K: it is rare that I agree with you, but Mein Kampf is quite unreadable
but its value is that everything that Hitler was going to do, is
in this book.... it is a blueprint for every action he took
over the next 20 years... (now mind you, I haven't read
Mein Kampf in over 30 years, but it isn't quite the worst
written book I ever came across, but it is close)

Kropotkin
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 1:55 pm
Constantine wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:29 am I've been noticing massive parallels between Hitler and the Woke movement. Both do pogroms, intimidation, virtue signaling and are open to Socialism. Both are ethnic centric beliefs systems proclaiming a historically aggrieved status to one ethnic group, placing blame on the other, and scape goating it for current issues. Both demand repayment, either in blood, reparations or living space.
Actually, "Nazi" means "National Socialist."

Hitler wasn't just "open to" Socialism: he was the chief proponent of a particular kind of Socialism, a Socialism based on national identity and genetics. And "fascist" comes from the Latin word meaning "a bundle of sticks tied together for strength," which is the core idea behind Socialism, i.e. collectivization.

Wokies are the same: they advocate "binding together" under a single, national or global authoritarian government, which they imagine will benignly and paternalistically give them free everything and save the planet at the same time. And yes, they do all the things you point out were hallmarks of Nazism, except limit their ideology to nation.
You've been told repeatedly why the Nazis used the word 'socialism' yet pointedly choose to ignore it every time the topic comes up (which is A LOT). How 'convenient'. I mean, dismantling unions is SUCH a 'socialist' thing to do. Being a totalitarian dictator is SUCH a 'socialist' ideal. 'National 'socialism'' is the exact opposite of socialism. Germany under Hitler was the polar opposite of socialism. Your blatant and open dishonesty on here is tedious and pointless. What's the point in lying here? It's ridiculous.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:20 pm You've been told repeatedly why the Nazis used the word 'socialism' yet pointedly choose to ignore it every time the topic comes up (which is A LOT).
That's because the excuse-making for Socialism's abundant and horrific historical failures is absurd. It deserves the back of a hand, no more. There's simply too much data to the contrary to make any of those excuses plausible.

Socialism killed, by kind estimates, over 100 million people so far. And it's still doing it in places like China and North Korea. The Socialism of the Nazis was actually one of the least-bad failures of Socialism: both Stalin and Mao were statistically far worse.

But what do today's pathetic Socialists say? "That wasn't real Socialism." And then you ask them, "Then point out where a Socialist state has worked?" And they cannot. They say, "Socialism's an ideal that has not been realized yet." And perversely, they want you to believe that the only flaw in Socialism has been that THEY, personally, were not in control of it last time. :shock: What arrogance!

It's all absurd. None of it deserves to be taken seriously. The historical facts, however, are very, very serious.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:43 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:20 pm You've been told repeatedly why the Nazis used the word 'socialism' yet pointedly choose to ignore it every time the topic comes up (which is A LOT).
That's because the excuse-making for Socialism's abundant and horrific historical failures is absurd. It deserves the back of a hand, no more. There's simply too much data to the contrary to make any of those excuses plausible.

Socialism killed, by kind estimates, over 100 million people so far. And it's still doing it in places like China and North Korea. The Socialism of the Nazis was actually one of the least-bad failures of Socialism: both Stalin and Mao were statistically far worse.

But what do today's pathetic Socialists say? "That wasn't real Socialism." And then you ask them, "Then point out where a Socialist state has worked?" And they cannot. They say, "Socialism's an ideal that has not been realized yet." And perversely, they want you to believe that the only flaw in Socialism has been that THEY, personally, were not in control of it last time. :shock: What arrogance!

It's all absurd. None of it deserves to be taken seriously. The historical facts, however, are very, very serious.
Dipshit. You have no concept of what 'socialism' even is. It suits your fanatical agenda to keep it that way. You don't give a flying rat's arse about the truth. Describe an extreme right-wing Nationalist regime then (since you keep insisting on describing 'socialism' vaguely as 'the left'.) Of course you won't. You never answer anything unless it's 'I answered that back in 2013. You can easily find it. I won't 'answer' it again blah blah lying drivel blah...'
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:50 pm You have no concept of what 'socialism' even is. It suits your fanatical agenda to keep it that way. You don't give a flying rat's arse about the truth. Describe an extreme right-wing Nationalist regime then
Let's hear your candidates. I can name dozens of killer Socialist regimes, so you should be able to name one, I think.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:50 pm You have no concept of what 'socialism' even is. It suits your fanatical agenda to keep it that way. You don't give a flying rat's arse about the truth. Describe an extreme right-wing Nationalist regime then
Let's hear your candidates. I can name dozens of killer Socialist regimes, so you should be able to name one, I think.
Any fascist dictatorship. Nazism. Italy under Mussolini.

Fascism is an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy. It combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism. It opposes communism, socialism, pluralism, individual rights and equality, and democratic government.

Hmm, pretty much describes every so-called 'communist' regime, therefore, according to your own 'logic', there has never been a 'left wing' regime. Based on a mountain of evidence, extremism coupled with human nature always goes to 'the right'.

So, according to you, there is no such thing as a 'right wing'. Every regime you don't like is automatically 'left wing'. You are such an ass.
And you have some fucking nerve expecting others to answer your disingenuous bullshit 'questions'. You've never answered a single question on here EVER, unless it's 'safe' and doesn't involve any personal risk. A cowardly jerk.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:20 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:50 pm You have no concept of what 'socialism' even is. It suits your fanatical agenda to keep it that way. You don't give a flying rat's arse about the truth. Describe an extreme right-wing Nationalist regime then
Let's hear your candidates. I can name dozens of killer Socialist regimes, so you should be able to name one, I think.
Any fascist dictatorship.
Fascism is collectivist, which means it's Left wing. Don't you know what "fascio" means?
So, according to you, there is no such thing as a 'right wing'.
I haven't said anything. I'm waiting for your example. I'm willing to entertain it, when it comes. But the two you gave are decidedly Socialist.
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:01 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:20 pm
Let's hear your candidates. I can name dozens of killer Socialist regimes, so you should be able to name one, I think.
Any fascist dictatorship.
Fascism is collectivist, which means it's Left wing. Don't you know what "fascio" means?
So, according to you, there is no such thing as a 'right wing'.
I haven't said anything. I'm waiting for your example. I'm willing to entertain it, when it comes. But the two you gave are decidedly Socialist.
After you've described what a right wing regime would look like. How can I give you an example if you don't tell me what it is?
Apparently 'fascism' comes from the Latin word for 'bundle of sticks'. Ooh. Revelation. Honestly, I really have better things to do than deal with your bullshit. Does it really make any difference if a totalitarian dictatorship is 'left' or 'right'? How would they differ?
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:01 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:41 pm Any fascist dictatorship.
Fascism is collectivist, which means it's Left wing. Don't you know what "fascio" means?
So, according to you, there is no such thing as a 'right wing'.
I haven't said anything. I'm waiting for your example. I'm willing to entertain it, when it comes. But the two you gave are decidedly Socialist.
After you've described what a right wing regime would look like. How can I give you an example if you don't tell me what it is?
Personally, I can't think of one. Only collectivists seem to want to form "regimes," and the Socialists have the market cornered on dictators, as well...from Stalin and Mao to Castro and the Kim Jongs, to Pol Pot and Mugabe...Socialists, to a man.

I guess you could argue that a "monarchy" would possibly be one, but nobody today pulls for that. So I can't help you.

So you're going to have to help me out. What have you got?
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

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Franco Spain 1939-1975

Pinochet Chile 1973-1990
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Re: Is Mein Kampf the most Woke work ever?

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 12:34 am Correction: Nazism was the opposite of socialism and so is wokism. The Nazis used the term 'National Socialism' to attract the ordinary working man, but the clue is in the use of the word 'National' (and everything they ever did). But yes, there are many similarities.
What's socialist about national socialism (and fascism)?
"At times, both Mussolini and Hitler portrayed their ideas as forms of ‘socialism’ (although the notion of a link between socialism and fascism is deeply controversial, and rejected by virtually all socialists). Mussolini had previously been an influential member of the Italian Socialist Party and editor of its newspaper, Avanti, while the Nazi Party espoused a philosophy it called ‘national socialism’. To some extent, undoubtedly, this represented a cynical attempt to elicit support from urban workers. Nevertheless, despite obvious ideological rivalry between fascism and socialism, fascists did have an affinity for certain socialist ideas and positions. In the first place, lower-middle-class fascist activists had a profound distaste for large-scale capitalism, reflected in a resentment towards big business and financial institutions. For instance, small shopkeepers were under threat from the growth of department stores, the smallholding peasantry was losing out to large-scale farming, and small businesses were increasingly in hock to the banks. Socialist or ‘leftist’ ideas were therefore prominent in German grassroots organizations such as the SA, or Brownshirts, which recruited significantly from among the lower middle classes.

Second, fascism, like socialism, subscribes to collectivism, putting it at odds with the ‘bourgeois’ values of capitalism. Fascism places the community above the individual; Nazi coins, for example, bore the inscription ‘Common Good before Private Good’. Capitalism, in contrast, is based on the pursuit of self-interest and therefore threatens to undermine the cohesion of the nation or race. Fascists also despise the materialism that capitalism fosters: the desire for wealth or profit runs counter to the idealistic vision of national regeneration or world conquest that inspires fascists.

Third, fascist regimes often practised socialist-style economic policies designed to regulate or control capitalism. Capitalism was thus subordinated to the ideological objectives of the fascist state. As Oswald Mosley (1896–1980), leader of the British Union of Fascists, put it, ‘Capitalism is a system by which capital uses the nation for its own purposes. Fascism is a system by which the nation uses capital for its own purposes.’ Both the Italian and German regimes tried to bend big business to their political ends through policies of nationalization and state regulation. For example, after 1939, German capitalism was reorganized under Hermann Göring’s Four Year Plan, deliberately modelled on the Soviet idea of Five Year Plans.

However, the notion of fascist socialism has severe limitations. For instance, ‘leftist’ elements within fascist movements, such as the SA in Germany and Sorelian revolutionary syndicalists in Italy, were quickly marginalized once fascist parties gained power, in the hope of cultivating the support of big business. This occurred most dramatically in Nazi Germany, through the purge of the SA and the murder of its leader, Ernst Röhm, in the ‘Night of the Long Knives’ in 1934. Marxists have thus argued that the purpose of fascism was to salvage capitalism rather than to subvert it. Moreover, fascist ideas about the organization of economic life were, at best, vague and sometimes inconsistent; pragmatism, not ideology, determined fascist economic policy. Finally, anti-communism was more prominent within fascism than anti-capitalism. A core objective of fascism was to seduce the working class away from Marxism and Bolshevism, which preached the insidious, even traitorous, idea of international working-class solidarity and upheld the misguided values of cooperation and equality. Fascists were dedicated to national unity and integration, and so wanted the allegiances of race and nation to be stronger than those of social class."

(Heywood, Andrew. Political Ideologies: An Introduction. 7th ed. London: Red Globe/Macmillan, 2021. pp. 155-7)
——————
"First of all, it is important to note that there was nothing socialist about National Socialism, at least in the Marxist sense. Hitler and his followers utterly rejected fundamental socialist ideas such as the inevitability of class struggle and the ultimate elimination of national boundaries. It is true that, particularly early on, National Socialists embraced radical ideas such as abolition of “unearned” income (i.e., dividends), redistribution of wealth, and even nationalization of certain industries. Hitler himself was highly critical of the German bourgeoisie, which he believed had focused selfishly on its own material well-being at the expense of the nation as a whole. Nevertheless, he consistently defended private property, and frequently praised the work of individual entrepreneurs.

For National Socialists the interests of the nation trumped all other concerns, whether individual or class-based. This meant not that business owners should be dispossessed or that large firms should be dissolved, but that they should be forced to serve the needs of the German people. The state would, therefore, be the dominant force in the economy—as it would be in society at large. Hitler sometimes offered the model of the army as an ideal social organization, with a top-down command structure whose merit was ultimately based on the extent to which it served the national interest. Capitalists who were willing to accept government regimentation would be permitted to profit handsomely, but those who refused would be destroyed. When questioned about his use of the term “socialist,” he admitted that it was “unfortunate” and that it should not be interpreted to mean that all “business must be socialized; it means only that they can be socialized if they offend against the interests of the nation. As long as they do not do that, it would be simply a crime to destroy business life.”"

(Moser, John E. The Global Great Depression and the Coming of World War II. Boulder, CO: Paradigm Publishers, 2015. p. 121)
Last edited by Consul on Fri Jun 30, 2023 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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