WOKE and identification...

[Peter Kropotkin]

In thinking about this, and I think it is in identification
of people that defines being WOKE or not WOKE...

an example of this is in being trans....
(note, I am not trans or gay, so I may get this wrong,
but even in that, I point out a conclusion)

who gets to identify? that is the question....

several states have gone on attack against gays and trans people...
for example, in drag shows and the ever-popular bathroom
discussion....now the anti-gay/trans crowd, believes that if
I am born a male, I am male forever and a day...regardless of how
I feel about it...society/state has identified me as male, no
matter what I think or feel about it....but what if I feel like
I am not a male, but something else... female, binary,
agender, bigender, transgender, femme, intersex and gender fluid....

the question becomes, who gets to identify me and why?

so that becomes the real question.... if I identify as some other
gender than the one I was born with, do I get to identify
myself or does the society/state get to identify me?

if I choose to wear women's clothing, why does the state/society
get a vote on that? If I choose to go to drag shows and sing,
if that is my identity, why does the society/society get to
ban me?

as it is a personal matter, no different than what god I pray to,
or choose not to pray to, or what nationality, I choose to
be (an example of this is my mom claims to be English,
and she is, and I could do so also, but instead, I claim
to be Irish, as my dad's family came from Irland)
when people ask, I say, I am Irish.. but does the state/society
get to identify me in a certain way? Does the state/society
get to identify me as English or Irish? and why does the
state/society get to identify me?
and how is that different than my self-identification as being
gay/trans/binary/or what have you? Nazi Germany had people
identify as Jewish on all official state documents... why does the
State/society get to do so, when I personally may not choose
to self-identify as Jewish....

On what grounds does the state/society get to identify
me, count for more than my own self-identification?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Now let us say, that the state/society claim
to be able to identify me to ''protect" the state/society...
so, what harm and that is the basis of this claim,
what harm is done to the state/society if I personally
claim to be gay or trans or cisgender or femme, or
whatever...

now in legal terms, someone can file a lawsuit if
they are personally harmed by some action, but
if they cannot prove that they are affected in any way,
shape or form, they cannot file a lawsuit against someone....
to have standing is an important aspect of the law...

I would suggest that the state/society has no standing
in being able to pass laws against my sexual self-identity...
as I personally might self-identify something different
than the state/society demands I identify with....
If I choose to dress as a woman and sing in some drag show,
the state/society has no standing in banning me...
for there is no harm in such an action....

but as usual, the anti-crowd, will shout, BUT KROPOTKIN,
WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN? WE MUST PROTECT THE CHILDREN...

and here is the interesting thing, you haven't proven your case
that my dressing as a woman and singing in a show, will
harm or damage children... just as you haven't proven your
case that my reading to children in dress in a library,
has in fact, damaged children in any way, shape or form...

In fact, I could make the argument that my wearing a dress
and reading to children is a beneficial activity, healthy
and desired to have in a society/state....

for the state/society wants a fixed, set society/state....
for the state/society believes in black and white,
right or wrong, good and evil... in the eyes of the state/society,
there no shades of gray.... it is all black and white...
one or the other... but that is not how the world works,
that is not how being human works....every human being
who has ever lived, is a shade of gray... that they can
and most likely will have acted or committed acts
that can be defined as either good or evil... acting
in terms of being good one minute, and evil the next....
for we human beings are both good and evil... depending
on the context, circumstances...
but Kropotkin, you can't tell people if they are good or evil,
but then why can the state/society make that determination
and I can't?
No one that has ever lived has been exclusively evil or good...

the idea that the world is just black and white, good and evil,
right and wrong... is a failed understanding of what it means
to be human....for we hold, possess both good and evil inside of
us... the choice is to whether we act with goodness or
with evil? we decide the choices, not the state/society...

because on what standard, what specific values do we decide
that one is good or that one is evil? is there an objective
standard that one can use to determine if one is good or evil?
that there is no objective standard to decide on whether
on is good or evil, allows us to make our own choices,
as to what is right or wrong.... for our standard is just
as good of a standard as the state/society uses...

and so, we return to the question, does being gay or being
trans actually harm a society/state? and what standard will
you use to judge such a matter?

Kropotkin

[henry quirk]

"who gets to identify?"

If, for example, you 'self-identify' as a penguin, that's your business. Go be the best penguin you can be. Keep in mind, though: no one else has an obligation to agree with your 'self-identification'.

Hi, I'm a penguin!

Well you go buddy!

Don't you think I'm a pretty penguin?

Uh, no, I don't.

Why?

Look, you and this penguin stuff, that's your thing, not mine.

You mean you don't think I'm pretty?

I mean you're not a penguin.

But you said I was!

No, I pretty much just gave you a thumbs up on you doin' you...that ain't the same as sayin' I agree with you...cuz I don't.

You're miss-species-ing me! You're a bigot! You're genociding me! You're a Nazi!

Look, guy...

I'm not a guy, I'm a penguin!

...you think you're a penguin and that's fine by me, but that's as far as I'm gonna go with this. I'll never agree that you actually 'are' a penguin. It oughta be enough that I acknowledge you believe you're a penguin...

I don't believe I'm a penguin, I am a penguin!

...and leave you be. That's fair, right?

It's not fair!

Why?

Because you're genociding me!

No, I'm not. I'm leavin' you be to live your life exactly as you like. I simply demand the same from you.

But I can't live my life if you don't acknowledge me as a penguin!

Then you got a problem cuz I ain't doin' that cuz you're not a penguin.

Genocide! Genocide! Genocide!

[Peter Kropotkin]

Now some around here have claimed that being trans is
wrong in some fashion, mentally ill in fact, but
have they proven their claims? Not at all...
they are just personal claims... and how is my claim
that not only is being trans, cross dressing not harmful
to a state/society, but I believe it to be beneficial
and even useful.... but how are we to sort out
these distinct and separate claims?
what standard are we going to use to sort out these claims?

that is the question....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

"who gets to identify?"

If, for example, you 'self-identify' as a penguin, that's your business. Go be the best penguin you can be. Keep in mind, though: no one else has an obligation to agree with your 'self-identification'.

Hi, I'm a penguin!

Well you go buddy!

Don't you think I'm a pretty penguin?

Uh, no, I don't.

Why?

Look, you and this penguin stuff, that's your thing, not mine.

You mean you don't think I'm pretty?

I mean you're not a penguin.

But you said I was!

No, I pretty much just gave you a thumbs up on you doin' you...that ain't the same as sayin' I agree with you...cuz I don't.

You're miss-species-ing me! You're a bigot! You're genociding me! You're a Nazi!

Look, guy...

I'm not a guy, I'm a penguin!

...you think you're a penguin and that's fine by me, but that's as far as I'm gonna go with this. I'll never agree that you actually 'are' a penguin. It oughta be enough that I acknowledge you believe you're a penguin...

I don't believe I'm a penguin, I am a penguin!

...and leave you be. That's fair, right?

It's not fair!

Why?

Because you're genociding me!

No, I'm not. I'm leavin' you be to live your life exactly as you like. I simply demand the same from you.

But I can't live my life if you don't acknowledge me as a penguin!

Then you got a problem cuz I ain't doin' that cuz you're not a penguin.

Genocide! Genocide! Genocide!

K: and not getting the point, who gets to do the identification?
do I or do you or does the state/society?
and on what grounds do we use to make that determination?
what standard are we using to make such an identification?
maybe I am thinking I am a penguin, and you say no,
so, who is right and why?

Kropotkin

[henry quirk]

"maybe I am thinking I am a penguin, and you say no"

My point: I'm perfectly willing to accept and acknowledge you believe you're a penguin without accepting and acknowledgin' that you are, as fact, a penguin (cuz you're not).

"not getting the point"

Wasn't tryin' to (cuz I was makin' my own).

"who gets to do the identification? do I or do you or does the state/society?"

You get to self-identify as a penguin; I get to disagree.

As for these great constructs, Society, State, neither ought have a say in what is, or should be, or can be, a civil, commonsensical interaction between you and me. If I recognize and respect your right to your life, liberty, and property, and you recognize and respect my right to my life, liberty, and property (that is: I respect your right to think you're a penguin, and you respect my right to disagree) Society & State ought not figure in at all. That both -- the shifty and shifting whims of Society & the schizophrenic judgements of the State -- have become the first stop instead of the last resort sez everything you need to know about our non-civilization.

[Immanuel Can]

"who gets to identify?"

If, for example, you 'self-identify' as a penguin, that's your business. Go be the best penguin you can be. Keep in mind, though: no one else has an obligation to agree with your 'self-identification'.

Hi, I'm a penguin!

Well you go buddy!

Don't you think I'm a pretty penguin?

Uh, no, I don't.

Why?

Look, you and this penguin stuff, that's your thing, not mine.

You mean you don't think I'm pretty?

I mean you're not a penguin.

But you said I was!

No, I pretty much just gave you a thumbs up on you doin' you...that ain't the same as sayin' I agree with you...cuz I don't.

You're miss-species-ing me! You're a bigot! You're genociding me! You're a Nazi!

Look, guy...

I'm not a guy, I'm a penguin!

...you think you're a penguin and that's fine by me, but that's as far as I'm gonna go with this. I'll never agree that you actually 'are' a penguin. It oughta be enough that I acknowledge you believe you're a penguin...

I don't believe I'm a penguin, I am a penguin!

...and leave you be. That's fair, right?

It's not fair!

Why?

Because you're genociding me!

No, I'm not. I'm leavin' you be to live your life exactly as you like. I simply demand the same from you.

But I can't live my life if you don't acknowledge me as a penguin!

Then you got a problem cuz I ain't doin' that cuz you're not a penguin.

Genocide! Genocide! Genocide!

That's hilarious...and totally on point! It's a Python sketch...too bad they're not making them anymore.

Right you are. That's exactly the pattern of argument the Wokies throw at you.

That it gets any hearing at all is a perfect testimony to how lunatic our society has become. We can't even answer the question "What is a woman?" for instance. And if we can't, you can be darn sure none of us is going to be any good as an "advocate for women." You can't "advocate for" something that you also insist just doesn't exist.

[henry quirk]

Mannie,

Thing is: most folks legitimately don't give a flyin' flip if Joe, a 300 pound man, self-identifies as a penguin. They know he's not, but -- what the hey -- it's Joe's thing. Everybody gets to pick their Highway to Hell. But most folks take a dim view of bein' forced by Joe, or Joe's proxies, to pretend that he actually is a penguin.

I'm a penguin!

Well, good for you, Joe.

Now, feed me mackerel!

Uh, no, Joe, I'm not doin' that.

Genocide!

[Peter Kropotkin]

In thinking about this idea of ''trans genocide",
it is another example of the state/society/people
getting fixed ideas about genocide....

So, we in America has had a cultural war for over 40 years
now... and what is the point of a cultural war? to win something,
and what is the war about? to identify others in a certain way....
the culture wars are about the cultural aspect of society...
about the questions of ethics/morals in regards to certain
beliefs, such as one being gay... or trans... the cultural wars
have been about social issues like being gay or being trans...
and the idea that being gay or being trans is somehow
immoral or unethical... never actually shown how or if this
is true, but that doesn't matter... the charge is the point...

the unspoken idea in the cultural wars is to make America
the same... to homogenize America... to have every single
American hold the same values, to have the same beliefs,
to be culturally, socially, politically, economically the same....
to eliminate diversity in America...

that is the point of the cultural wars....if you are different,
you are wrong, evil, unamerican, immoral... so if you are gay or
trans or black or a minority, you are by definition, different,
and thus you are a target in the cultural wars...to remove or
to homogenize one is the goals of the cultural wars..

Now the next aspect of this is this, what is the most important
part or aspect of being human? we are all physically the same...
we have no major physical differences between us...
or as Shakespear once wrote,

"If you p**** us, do we not bleed?
if you tickle us, do we not laugh?
if you poison us, do we not die?"

so, we are physically the same...
and so, what differences do we have as human beings?
our identities... I am a male, but so are billions of human beings,
I am white and so are billions of human beings, I am old,
and so are billions of human beings... so far, nothing
to stand me out from billions of human beings...

but I am a democrat, a liberal, I like reading, I watch sports,
especially baseball.. with each aspect of me, we can
reduce the idea of who I am into a smaller and smaller
group of people....

what determines my being human is my identity...
who I am and who I identify as ...

now if the state/society is attempting to limit or
eliminate my identity as I may self-identify as being gay
or being trans, then isn't that by definition,
genocide? for a major part of being human is our
identity...and if we remove that identity,
make everyone having the same identity,
then forcing those who are different, that
is a form of cultural genocide...if who we are is
identity, then forcing people to have the same identity,
is a form of cultural genocide...
to eliminate gays by forcing them to have the same identity as
myself, as being straight, isn't that a form of cultural genocide?

we think of genocide as being the act of murdering a group or
state, but isn't genocide also the act of removing that which
defines us a human beings?

removing my identity is no different than the actual act of
genocide because who I am is my identity....
and removing my identity is a form of genocide....

we are who we identify as...
which isn't our physical bodies, but our own
self identification.... take the native Americans...
remove aspects of their culture, you remove
who they are, you have committed just another form
of genocide... cultural genocide... which is just
another form of genocide...

to force everyone into being part of the 'Stepford wives"
is just another form of genocide....of removing their
own self identification is a form of genocide....

Kropotkin

[phyllo]

Now some around here have claimed that being trans is
wrong in some fashion, mentally ill in fact, but
have they proven their claims? Not at all...
they are just personal claims... and how is my claim
that not only is being trans, cross dressing not harmful
to a state/society, but I believe it to be beneficial
and even useful.... but how are we to sort out
these distinct and separate claims?
what standard are we going to use to sort out these claims?

that is the question....

Kropotkin

You haven't proven that it's not harmful. You just try to shift the burden of proof onto other people.

Consider a company that puts an additive into the food it sells and then tells the customers that they have to prove that/if it's harmful.

In the mean time, they are forced to consume the "food" product.

What kind of conduct would that be?

The company has to prove that it's safe before offering it.

[phyllo]

Acknowledge that a person can identify as a cat or be punished in school :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M86tEGN444

[phyllo]

maybe I am thinking I am a penguin, and you say no,
so, who is right and why?

Kropotkin

Somebody can seriously ask this ???

[Peter Kropotkin]

maybe I am thinking I am a penguin, and you say no,
so, who is right and why?

Kropotkin

Somebody can seriously ask this ???

K: yes, someone should seriously ask this.. because
a fundamental question is, who are we and who
gets to decide who we are? The question of identity, is one of the
primary motivators of both thought and action taken
in the U.S.... and the entire culture wars are about
this question of identification..... and who makes
that identification.... the state/society, individuals like
yourself or do I get to make my own self-identification?

Kropotkin

[phyllo]

maybe I am thinking I am a penguin, and you say no,
so, who is right and why?

Kropotkin

Somebody can seriously ask this ???

K: yes, someone should seriously ask this.. because
a fundamental question is, who are we and who
gets to decide who we are? The question of identity, is one of the
primary motivators of both thought and action taken
in the U.S.... and the entire culture wars are about
this question of identification..... and who makes
that identification.... the state/society, individuals like
yourself or do I get to make my own self-identification?

Kropotkin

Lunatics running the asylum.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Now some around here have claimed that being trans is
wrong in some fashion, mentally ill in fact, but
have they proven their claims? Not at all...
they are just personal claims... and how is my claim
that not only is being trans, cross dressing not harmful
to a state/society, but I believe it to be beneficial
and even useful.... but how are we to sort out
these distinct and separate claims?
what standard are we going to use to sort out these claims?

that is the question....

Kropotkin

You haven't proven that it's not harmful. You just try to shift the burden of proof onto other people.

Consider a company that puts an additive into the food it sells and then tells the customers that they have to prove that/if it's harmful.

In the mean time, they are forced to consume the "food" product.

What kind of conduct would that be?

The company has to prove that it's safe before offering it.

K; the burden of proving something lies with the person
making the accusation... thus the state may say,
I have committed murder, but then the state has to
prove its accusation......I simply have to defend myself...
to prove guilt lies with the one making the accusation...

you say, being gay or trans is a danger, is harming society/state,
you have made the accusation, I don't have to defend jack shit...
you made the accusation, now you get to prove it....

let us think about this... I say, being gay or being trans is not
harming society/the state... now how exactly am I going to
"prove" that being gay or being trans is not harmful to the
state/society? Proving a negative, is far easier in math, than
it is in life....you say, being gay or being trans is harmful
to the state/society... you have the burden of proof,
not me...

Kropotkin