What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:58 am For information:
I have been into advaita vedanta since very young for a long time and since long ago had graduated from it towards more of a non-theistic Buddhism's oriented philosophy which is a 180 degree paradigm shift.
So, perhaps a vedantic argument in support of your position invites as many problems as it would solve. His use of one, I mean, not yours.
Bacteria do not have FSK* exactly but rather a fundamental FSR [Framework and System of Realization of reality].
*FSK is a convenient term and relevant for higher evolved entities; FSK implied an embedded FSR.
'Realization of reality' sounds like realism. I'm sure you don't mean it that way given you're an anti-realist, but what does this FSR mean especially in the context of 'of reality'.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:26 am So, perhaps a vedantic argument in support of your position invites as many problems as it would solve.
The word "problem" gets thrown around by philosophers a lot, but the usual meaning has a baked-in moral presupposition.
problem noun 1. a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome.
And we are on a thread which doubts the objectivity of moral claims so......

Surely it's on the philosophers (who only deal with truth, facts and objectivity) to justify the claim that there is, in fact, a real problem?
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Premise: Anything humans say about the universe 'depends on' human beings - on there being humans to say things about the universe.

Conclusion: Therefore, anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Ffs.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:35 am Premise: Anything humans say about the universe 'depends on' human beings - on there being humans to say things about the universe.

Conclusion: Therefore, anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Ffs.
Failing to understand that anything humans talk about is a mix of connotation and denotation; and that there are no expressions which contain denotation devoid of connotation (for who would be denoting and why?) Peter "Dumb Cunt" Holmes strawmans again.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

The critical difference between Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta;
In Buddhism, the term anattā refers to the doctrine of "non-self" – that no unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found in any phenomenon.[note 1]
While often interpreted as a doctrine denying the existence of a self, anatman is more accurately described as a strategy to attain non-attachment by recognizing everything as impermanent, while staying silent on the ultimate existence of an unchanging essence.[1][2][3]
In contrast, Hinduism asserts the existence of Atman as pure awareness or witness-consciousness,[4][5][6][note 2] "reify[ing] consciousness as an eternal self."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatt%C4%81
While some claimed the Buddha remained silent on the existence of ultimate existence [thing-in-itself], a deep dive into the Buddhist texts will reveal the Buddha denied and refuted the idea of atman as it leads to endless cycles of rebirth and sufferings.

Kant on the other hand was very explicit in his CPR that the thing-in-itself is illusory but nevertheless a necessary and useful illusion.

While the Buddha rejected the ideal of the thing-in-itself as illusory, the Buddha did not condemn but allow lay-Buddhists to lean on idols, deities and gods, based on the idea that such are useful illusions related to their state of spiritual psychology.


Realization;
When a fetus is enclosed in embryonic fluid, it is already realizing within its level of cognition of the reality of what is supposedly 'water'.
This is the realization process prior to perceiving, knowing and describing what is supposedly 'water' in an adult person.

In an adult the realization power and process so its state of realization is more developed than that of the fetus.

The fetus realization power and process of its state of realization is more developed than its ancestors as evolved from that of the bacteria; this is prior to the adult perceiving, know and describe that realization.

As such, when an adult person perceives, knows and described 'water is H20' the prior processes of realization as already embedded in the body, brain and mind cannot be denied.
There is no mind-independent liquid [as the p-realists claimed due to ignorance] because the liquid labelled as 'what is water' is already entangled with humans prior to birth and inherited from 3.5 billion years of conditioning.

There are many types of realism re reality.
General the term realism and realist refer to philosophical realists who claim reality is mind-independent.
Rigoristically, an anti-realist in one perspective maybe a realist in another perspective and vice-versa.
As such, when using the term 'realism' one must be very familiar with the contexts involved.

Kant did claim he was an ANTI-Realist in one sense but also a realist in another sense.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Why don't you guys just grant VA the antirealism thing for the sake of argument and move on? It doesn't support the next proposition in the chain, so he can't leverage it to any useful purpose anyway
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:10 am Why don't you guys just grant VA the antirealism thing for the sake of argument and move on? It doesn't support the next proposition in the chain, so he can't leverage it to any useful purpose anyway
Already tried that.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:35 am Premise: Anything humans say about the universe 'depends on' human beings - on there being humans to say things about the universe.

Conclusion: Therefore, anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Ffs.
Yeah..

Put that up as a poster in the 'kindergarten' class you are attending at present.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:10 am Why don't you guys just grant VA the antirealism thing for the sake of argument and move on? It doesn't support the next proposition in the chain, so he can't leverage it to any useful purpose anyway
It's almost like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

You reject the existence of objective standards so what standards have you used to determine whether one proposition supports another.
Surely the lack of objective standards implies that anything goes?

You want to conceptualize philosophical interactions as linguistic and intellectual warfare, but then you also insist that there some a priori rules of engagement 🤷‍♂️
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:20 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:35 am Premise: Anything humans say about the universe 'depends on' human beings - on there being humans to say things about the universe.

Conclusion: Therefore, anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Ffs.
Yeah..

Put that up as a poster in the 'kindergarten' class you are attending at present.
Or. You could defend the claim that anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Or you could admit that that's an absurd claim, which is very obviously false - so that your whole argument is laughable. You could do that.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:59 am Or. You could defend the claim that anything in the universe that humans talk about 'depends on' humans.

Or you could admit that that's an absurd claim, which is very obviously false - so that your whole argument is laughable. You could do that.
P1. Anything humans talk about does not depend on humans talking about it.
P2. Humans talk about morality
C. Morality doesn't depend on humans talking about it.

Q.E.D Morality is objective.

In his desperate attempt to move the goal posts (yet again!) Peter "Dumb Cunt" Holmes loses another battle.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

P1 Things humans talk about do not depend on humans talking about them.
P2 Humans talk about fairies.
C. Therefore, fairies don't depend on humans talking about them.

Q.E.D Fairies exist.

Fucking moron.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:03 pm P1 Things humans talk about do not depend on humans talking about them.
P2 Humans talk about fairies.
C. Therefore, fairies don't depend on humans talking about them.

Q.E.D Fairies exist.

Fucking moron.
If fairies don't exist then what the fuck are humans talking about when humans talk about fairies?!?!?

Dumb fucking gaslighting cunt.

Lets expand this type of skepticism further, shall we?

If morality doesn't exist then what the fuck are humans talking about when humans talk about morality?
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

If humans talk about fairies, then fairies must exist. Otherwise, what are humans talking about?

You fucking, idiotic moron. Go away and grow a brain.
Skepdick
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Skepdick »

Fixed it for you.
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:51 pm If humans talk about f̶a̶i̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ morality, then f̶a̶i̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ morality must exist. Otherwise, what are humans talking about?
Peter "Dumb Cunt" Holmes's skepticism is just nihilism in disguise.

All the brains in the world can't cure that sort of stupidity.
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