Numinosity

[ThinkOfOne]

Well, as I said, it's more physical in nature, and there seems to be an electro-magnetic element to it. That's not what I get with music, nor indeed dreams, which nevertheless can sometimes have a very powerful emotional effect.

Electro-magnetic element? That hasn't been detected by any instruments?

You seem to believe that there's something special about some places above and beyond a quirk in the nervous system. What of an eerie feeling from certain places? Also from some undetected physical force?

From what I gather, both believers and non-believers can get a numinous feeling from old cavernous cathedrals. Believers also ascribe it a "spiritual meaning", in their case the presence of God. Also from some undetected electro-magnetic force?

Yes, eerie feelings from certain places are included. I don't think the force is undetected, though. Dowsers detect it all the time. I've even had a go at dowsing myself.

Churches usually leave me pretty cold, but if you want a practical answer as to why some of them could evoke this feeling, then consider that many of the medieval ones were built on pre-existing sacred places. There's a famous letter from Pope Gregory from around AD 600 instructing his representatives in England, converting the Pagan inhabitants, to do exactly that.

Some years ago, a large wildfire -over 400 square miles- ripped through an area near me. Part of which was a large park - over 10 square miles. In the park was a valley where the ground was completely covered in white ash with numerous large completely charred-black bushes standing within this space. It was eerie. Forcefully so. Enough to take your breath away. Undetected force?

[Maia]

Electro-magnetic element? That hasn't been detected by any instruments?

You seem to believe that there's something special about some places above and beyond a quirk in the nervous system. What of an eerie feeling from certain places? Also from some undetected physical force?

From what I gather, both believers and non-believers can get a numinous feeling from old cavernous cathedrals. Believers also ascribe it a "spiritual meaning", in their case the presence of God. Also from some undetected electro-magnetic force?

Yes, eerie feelings from certain places are included. I don't think the force is undetected, though. Dowsers detect it all the time. I've even had a go at dowsing myself.

Churches usually leave me pretty cold, but if you want a practical answer as to why some of them could evoke this feeling, then consider that many of the medieval ones were built on pre-existing sacred places. There's a famous letter from Pope Gregory from around AD 600 instructing his representatives in England, converting the Pagan inhabitants, to do exactly that.

Some years ago, a large wildfire -over 400 square miles- ripped through an area near me. Part of which was a large park - over 10 square miles. In the park was a valley where the ground was completely covered in white ash with numerous large completely charred-black bushes standing within this space. It was eerie. Forcefully so. Enough to take your breath away. Undetected force?

Not undetected, if you detected it.

[ThinkOfOne]

Yes, eerie feelings from certain places are included. I don't think the force is undetected, though. Dowsers detect it all the time. I've even had a go at dowsing myself.

Churches usually leave me pretty cold, but if you want a practical answer as to why some of them could evoke this feeling, then consider that many of the medieval ones were built on pre-existing sacred places. There's a famous letter from Pope Gregory from around AD 600 instructing his representatives in England, converting the Pagan inhabitants, to do exactly that.

Some years ago, a large wildfire -over 400 square miles- ripped through an area near me. Part of which was a large park - over 10 square miles. In the park was a valley where the ground was completely covered in gray ash with numerous large completely charred-black bushes standing within this space. It was eerie. Forcefully so. Enough to take your breath away. Undetected force?

Not undetected, if you detected it.

Given the context, you should have known what I meant. Do you ascribe it to some unknown undetected force emanating from the place itself? As for me, I rationally ascribe it to a quirk of the nervous system.

[Maia]

Some years ago, a large wildfire -over 400 square miles- ripped through an area near me. Part of which was a large park - over 10 square miles. In the park was a valley where the ground was completely covered in gray ash with numerous large completely charred-black bushes standing within this space. It was eerie. Forcefully so. Enough to take your breath away. Undetected force?

Not undetected, if you detected it.

Given the context, you should have known what I meant. Do you ascribe it to some unknown undetected force emanating from the place itself? As for me, I rationally ascribe it to a quirk of the nervous system.

The point is, though, that a quirk of the nervous system is exactly how dowsing works. Or at least, that's the prevailing theory. The nervous system is an electro-magnetic system.

[ThinkOfOne]

Not undetected, if you detected it.

Given the context, you should have known what I meant. Do you ascribe it to some unknown undetected force emanating from the place itself? As for me, I rationally ascribe it to a quirk of the nervous system.

The point is, though, that a quirk of the nervous system is exactly how dowsing works. Or at least, that's the prevailing theory. The nervous system is an electro-magnetic system.

Right. A quirk of the nervous system rather than some force emanating from the place itself. As I've been saying all along. You on the other hand have been arguing for the later.

[Maia]

Given the context, you should have known what I meant. Do you ascribe it to some unknown undetected force emanating from the place itself? As for me, I rationally ascribe it to a quirk of the nervous system.

The point is, though, that a quirk of the nervous system is exactly how dowsing works. Or at least, that's the prevailing theory. The nervous system is an electro-magnetic system.

Right. A quirk of the nervous system rather than some force emanating from the place itself. As I've been saying all along. You on the other hand have been arguing for the later.

A quirk of the nervous system allowing it to react to a force emanating from the place. Hence the electro-magnetic connection.

[ThinkOfOne]

The point is, though, that a quirk of the nervous system is exactly how dowsing works. Or at least, that's the prevailing theory. The nervous system is an electro-magnetic system.

Right. A quirk of the nervous system rather than some force emanating from the place itself. As I've been saying all along. You on the other hand have been arguing for the later.

A quirk of the nervous system allowing it to react to a force emanating from the place. Hence the electro-magnetic connection.

What is your source for this "prevailing theory"?

Why not the following which indicates a quirk of the unconscious mind rather than the detection of some force emanating from the place itself?

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

[Maia]

Right. A quirk of the nervous system rather than some force emanating from the place itself. As I've been saying all along. You on the other hand have been arguing for the later.

A quirk of the nervous system allowing it to react to a force emanating from the place. Hence the electro-magnetic connection.

What is your source for this "prevailing theory"?

Why not the following which indicates a quirk of the unconscious mind rather than the detection of some force emanating from the place itself?

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

My source is my own experience, supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject.

[ThinkOfOne]

A quirk of the nervous system allowing it to react to a force emanating from the place. Hence the electro-magnetic connection.

What is your source for this "prevailing theory"?

Why not the following which indicates a quirk of the unconscious mind rather than the detection of some force emanating from the place itself?

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

My source is my own experience, supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject.

You know, your lines of thought are not inconsistent with those who believe in the supernatural, e.g. "my own experience", "supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject". They can produce no solid evidence nor sound reasoning, yet believe it to be true regardless. As do you. Yet you seem to take great pains in distancing yourself from them. For all intents and purposes, you are no more rational. Do you understand this about yourself?

[Maia]

What is your source for this "prevailing theory"?

Why not the following which indicates a quirk of the unconscious mind rather than the detection of some force emanating from the place itself?

My source is my own experience, supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject.

You know, your lines of thought are not inconsistent with those who believe in the supernatural, e.g. "my own experience", "supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject". They can produce no solid evidence nor sound reasoning, yet believe it to be true regardless. As do you. Yet you seem to take great pains in distancing yourself from them. For all intents and purposes, you are no more rational. Do you understand this about yourself?

You could say the same about, say, archaeology, a subject I know quite a lot about. It has its theories and fads. Or, in fact, any subject at all.

As for solid evidence, that's actually quite easy. Just go and try it yourself.

[ThinkOfOne]

My source is my own experience, supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject.

You know, your lines of thought are not inconsistent with those who believe in the supernatural, e.g. "my own experience", "supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject". They can produce no solid evidence nor sound reasoning, yet believe it to be true regardless. As do you. Yet you seem to take great pains in distancing yourself from them. For all intents and purposes, you are no more rational. Do you understand this about yourself?

You could say the same about, say, archaeology, a subject I know quite a lot about. It has its theories and fads. Or, in fact, any subject at all.

As for solid evidence, that's actually quite easy. Just go and try it yourself.

In case it was unclear, what I had in mind in my previous post was your position on "numinosity" of place.

Like those who ascribe their experiences with the supernatural, you ascribe your experiences with some unknown/undetected force - in your case you believe it to be an unknown/undetected natural force rather supernatural. There's not much difference between the two.

[Maia]

You know, your lines of thought are not inconsistent with those who believe in the supernatural, e.g. "my own experience", "supplemented by that of others who are familiar with the subject". They can produce no solid evidence nor sound reasoning, yet believe it to be true regardless. As do you. Yet you seem to take great pains in distancing yourself from them. For all intents and purposes, you are no more rational. Do you understand this about yourself?

You could say the same about, say, archaeology, a subject I know quite a lot about. It has its theories and fads. Or, in fact, any subject at all.

As for solid evidence, that's actually quite easy. Just go and try it yourself.

In case it was unclear, what I had in mind in my previous post was your position on "numinosity" of place.

Like those who ascribe their experiences with the supernatural, you ascribe your experiences with some unknown/undetected force - in your case you believe it to be an unknown/undetected natural force rather supernatural. There's not much difference between the two.

Dowsing is a form of detection, which you can try yourself. The force in question is not undetected.

[ThinkOfOne]

You could say the same about, say, archaeology, a subject I know quite a lot about. It has its theories and fads. Or, in fact, any subject at all.

As for solid evidence, that's actually quite easy. Just go and try it yourself.

In case it was unclear, what I had in mind in my previous post was your position on "numinosity" of place.

Like those who ascribe their experiences with the supernatural, you ascribe your experiences with some unknown/undetected force - in your case you believe it to be an unknown/undetected natural force rather supernatural. There's not much difference between the two.

Dowsing is a form of detection, which you can try yourself. The force in question is not undetected.

Once again, I wasn't speaking just of dowsing. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

As to dowsing the following is a much more reasonable explanation:

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

[Maia]

In case it was unclear, what I had in mind in my previous post was your position on "numinosity" of place.

Like those who ascribe their experiences with the supernatural, you ascribe your experiences with some unknown/undetected force - in your case you believe it to be an unknown/undetected natural force rather supernatural. There's not much difference between the two.

Dowsing is a form of detection, which you can try yourself. The force in question is not undetected.

Once again, I wasn't speaking just of dowsing. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

As to dowsing the following is a much more reasonable explanation:

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

But I *am* talking about dowsing though, so it's clearly you who are being obtuse.

And, as I said earlier when you posted that same quote, I prefer to rely on my own experience and that of others who know what they're doing. Whoever wrote that clearly doesn't know the subject very well, if they think that dowsers ascribe supernatural power to the rods.

Try it yourself. It's easy.

[ThinkOfOne]

Dowsing is a form of detection, which you can try yourself. The force in question is not undetected.

Once again, I wasn't speaking just of dowsing. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

As to dowsing the following is a much more reasonable explanation:

There is some evidence that dowsers can find water or oil when more traditional methods have failed, which seems miraculous. But experiments show that this works only when the dowser has some unconscious knowledge of where the target is. For example, they might be using clues from vegetation, geography or temperature. They might not realise what they’re doing, and so believe in the supernatural power of the rods. Experiments have been done that eliminate these possibilities, by running water through one of 10 pipes laid underground, or moving the position of water pipes. Under such controlled conditions dowsers do not succeed.

From <https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is ... r-dowsing/>

But I *am* talking about dowsing though, so it's clearly you who are being obtuse.

And, as I said earlier when you posted that same quote, I prefer to rely on my own experience and that of others who know what they're doing. Whoever wrote that clearly doesn't know the subject very well, if they think that dowsers ascribe supernatural power to the rods.

Try it yourself. It's easy.

Well, it's clear that you aren't about to start bringing any intellectual honesty to the table. Not about numinosity. Not about where you got lost in the discussion. Not about dowsing.

And so it goes...