what is the underlying problem here?

[Peter Kropotkin]

as is known, I work in a grocery store in California...
and one of the things that has become very obvious
is the amount of stealing/shoplifting that has become,
well, widespread...a couple cases of beer and alcohol is being
stolen just about every 5 minutes.. one of the liquor guys
told me that they have received 72 bottles of this particular
liquor and they can only account for selling 6 bottles...
the rest was stolen... and Kropotkin, what do I care?
Well, as is known that whatever strikes California,
will soon hit the rest of the country... we are usually
first with a trend and then it goes to the rest of the country..
I have found the time span is about 5 to 10 years.. from the
time it hits us to the Midwest, where my family lives...
so coming to a store near you, will be massive shoplifting/theft...
and one day this week, I was pondering what could be done about this?

We have a practical problem and I am searching for a practical solution...
changing the laws? putting security guards in place at all stores?
the security guard solution has its own problems.. in San Francisco
recently, a security guard shot and killed a shoplifter... the shoplifter
has already left the store and was backing up when he was shot...
it has caused quite the stir out here.. and points out the real problems
with having untrained personal dealing with aggressive shoplifters..
elsewhere in the East Bay, a shoplifter shot/killed a security guard a couple
of weeks ago.. and the violence will only escalate from here...

so what are some possible solutions? I decided to try some out of the box
solutions.. these are thoughts experiments attempting to find a solution..
what if, what if, this is technically not possible right now, but
what if we had a system that automatically detected shoplifting...
and then what? Maybe knock out the shoplifter by some means...
but it is easy to see the problems with that one...
in today's climate, there would be a dozens of bodies by the door
every single hour...now that wouldn't work.. how about a sign
and horn that followed every single shoplifter around..
for maybe two days.. thus everywhere they went, the sign
and horn would follow them around... shoplifter/thief...
and it wouldn't even let them sleep because it would
follow them home... again, not technically feasible today...
but these thought experiments are an attempt to work out
some feasible solution.. but in thinking about these experiments,
it occurred to me that these solutions are really "ad hoc" solutions..
temporary, impermanent solutions and they may or may not solve
this problem but at best those thought experiments are again, ''ad hoc"
temporary... solving the shoplifting crisis doesn't really solve the
larger problems of the mindset of people that allows them to
think that stealing/shoplifting is an answer...I can see
if people are stealing food to feed their family, I get that...
but most people are stealing booze...how is that to be justified?

one might say, make the laws tougher and shoplifting will end...
and I am reminded of the plot of Les Miserables.. a man steal
a loaf of bread to feed his family and is sent to prison for
19 years.. and how does that extreme law make any sense?
it is punishment way out of proportion to the crime...
and why does the punishment fail? Because it doesn't solve the reason
for the crime in the first place.. a man is stealing to feed his family...
and that is crime... to feed one's family? Legally the punishment must
match the crime...and even then it doesn't solve the underlying
problem that caused one to steal.... it seems to me that
the solution lies not in laws or security guards, because
those are "ad hoc" solutions to a real problem.. "ad hoc"
temporary, created or done for a particular purpose
as necessary... anything "ad hoc" doesn't deal with the underlying problem
that created it in the first place... stealing/shoplifting is about
the underlying problem... especially given that most people steal
booze and not food.... what is the underlying problem here?

Kropotkin

[alan1000]

Here's a challenge for you, K (and you can use AI if you like!)

Summarise your own post in 50 words or less. I'm sure you'll find it easier than you think. Particularly if you research anti-shoplifting technologies beforehand.

[phyllo]

what is the underlying problem here?

The problem is that ethics has been undermined by those who say that ethics and morality is relative and subjective.

Which has lead some people to believe that what is ethical is whatever they think is ethical. They think their personal ethics is the real ethics and the only ethics that matters.

[Peter Kropotkin]

As I have noted, the problem isn't about the stealing/shoplifting..
but about the mindset that makes the stealing/shoplifting
easy to justify? it is about the factors the allow one to
steal with no/little moral qualms... the justification to steal can
be "I deserve this" to "this corporation can afford this" to
"I'll show them" but rarely one might actually get honest
and say, "my life sucks and so I steal''
there are as many justifications to steal/shoplift as there
are people who do it.... but how do we answer this question
and how in making our answer, stop people from stealing/shoplifting?
as is noted, I think of it as a part of a larger issue...

I believe that the reason that people steal has several different
tracks... legal,, political, social and philosophical....

legal: in the fact that here in California, the laws about
stealing/shoplifting from stores are very laxed.. in other words,
we can't really stop anyone from stealing/shoplifting.. we can't
physically stop them, and we can't accuse them of stealing
and we really aren't allow to even ask for a receipt...
basically we can't do anything about it... so there is no real
legal way for us to stop stealing/shoplifting...

but I don't think of shoplifting/stealing as a legal problem...
granted there are no legal consequences to stealing,
but that shouldn't matter... what about the mindset that
thinks that stealing is somehow acceptable?

we to clearly define our problem... for example, if people
are stealing to feed their family, that is an economic
problem, not a legal problem...and economic problems
require an economic solution... as I deal with people who
have EBT cards in which people can use public money to
feed themselves and their families...and frankly I have no
problem with my tax money feeding people in need..
but is it possible that the money we give them on EBT cards
just isn't enough to actually feed people? we must consider this...
what if we gave people more money to feed themselves and thus
help them avoid going the stealing/shoplifting route to be
able to feed their families? that is one route but it doesn't account
for most of the stealing/shoplifting we have.. which as I have mentioned
involves stealing booze... how do we change the mindset that makes
stealing booze somehow acceptable?

one of the obvious mindsets is the alienation that people feel
from the society/state... the state/society doesn't give a dam about
me, so I will steal in compensation for that...
to show my disdain for the society/state.... I'll show them....
and that is one obvious mindset people have....
and the possible solutions to that problem lies in our rethinking,
reevaluating the relationship between the individual/family
and the state/society...

as far as I can tell, the relationship between the individual and
the state/society is more adversarial than it has ever been...
in my youth, the relationship between the individual and the
state, wasn't as adversarial as it is today...so what changed?

I would say, this adversarial relationship came about from a
couple of different events/people... one was the Vietnam war...
one cannot imagine the before and after of Vietnam... the second
event was Watergate.. I don't think people realize that
that we had a different world before Vietnam and Watergate...

and the last event which is connected to Ronald Raygun...
the Iranian hostage crisis and his presidency... look at the difference
from Watergate and the Iran/Contra affair... and it was clear
from that event, that several people including Bush Sr. was
involved but by destroying evidence and the use of the pardons,
they were able to escape any responsibility for Iran/Contra...
(sound familiar)

Clinton had no real scandals of this sort...
but Bush Jr. and his Iraq/Afghanistan polices brought us to a place
where bush lied and people died and there was, once again,
no consequences for these lies and deceptions

and once again, Obama had no scandals to speak of ...
but we reach the IQ45 era... when all it was were lies
and deceptions.... and once again, there was no accountability
or any responsibility taken...

when we see no accountability taken for events, it embolden us
to do the same... we see business executives getting away with
crimes and we see politicians doing the same.. and we see
high profile people getting away with crimes that the average
citizen could never even think about.... for example,
take the theft of classified documents that IQ45 took from
the White House... we have a number of people in jail for
exactly the same crime.. and they were put in jail long
before the trial began as security risk.. why hasn't IQ45
been taken to jail? as dozens of other citizens have been?
the notion that one is above the law, either through title,
wealth or connections is a notion that allow people the
mindset to steal/shoplift... because justice applied
unequally, isn't justice at all.... and that is one of the major
problems with us today... is that we don't have justice in
this country.... to have justice, is to have a law applied
equally to everyone... not just to some or a few or even one...
because if we apply the law unequally, we no longer have
justice in America.... and this is clearly the case....
and within this understanding lies the mindset that
allows justification for some to steal.... now recall
that justifications are not logical, reasoned idea's,
but they are emotional actions... we justify from
our feelings and emotions... not from logic/reasoning...
and if justice isn't being applied equally, we are,
so the thought goes, exempt from having justice applied
equally to us....

and this is one partial reason that allow people to
justify stealing/shoplifting.... we don't have justice
in this country anymore... and if some can get away
with things, actions, event, then why am I not above
the legal system? and they have a point.. if justice isn't
applied equally, then why are some above the law
and some are not? the answer lies in those who
are legally held accountable are poor or lacking
in power or connections or not having a title...

so we can, to some extent, understand the rise in crime,
in stealing and shoplifting, to the lack of justice in America today...

why am I held accountable and others escape accountability?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Here's a challenge for you, K (and you can use AI if you like!)

Summarise your own post in 50 words or less. I'm sure you'll find it easier than you think. Particularly if you research anti-shoplifting technologies beforehand.

K: no thanks... I am not here to make your life easier..
if you are unable to read something that is more than
50 words, that is not my problem...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

what is the underlying problem here?

The problem is that ethics has been undermined by those who say that ethics and morality is relative and subjective.

Which has lead some people to believe that what is ethical is whatever they think is ethical. They think their personal ethics is the real ethics and the only ethics that matters.

K: and soon I shall hit this point...

Kropotkin...

[Agent Smith]

Peter Kropotkin makes his signature move; well, I hope it's his style because it's soooo cool! Must ... must ... try ... ta ... remember The Kropotkin opening ... must ... gaaah!

George Orwell comes ta mind, but the person I'm really thinking about is not him, it's someone else ... such an important person and no one talks about him ... her ... I don't even know his/her gender, what a crappy life I have!!

[phyllo]

we don't have justice in this country anymore

And then there are those who undermine the systems and institutions of a society.

The economic systems, the legal systems and political systems are presented as unfair, exploitive, abusive, corrupt, ...

[phyllo]

Next those who undermine spirituality. Discredit gods and religions and say that there is nothing beyond materialism.

Wealth, fame and power become the only things left to strive for.

[Peter Kropotkin]

ok, so what if, part of the problem with stealing/shoplifting
lies in the economic...I don't have money to buy these things,
so I must steal them.... economic problems require economic
solutions...which is why political and legal solutions
don't work.... and what most politicians offer...
"ad hoc" political or legal solutions that have nothing to do
with economic problems...

and one could make the argument, that I have already made,
that our current crisis stems from our economic system of
capitalism....think of the mindset of capitalism...
every man for himself...that somehow our individual vices
allow us to achieve some public good...or as one said...

"individual vices makes for a public good"

thus the individual vice of greed, somehow, never explained
how, but somehow creates a public good...
or that the private vice of anger or lust or violence,
creates a "public good"
I just don't see how one gets from private vices to a ''public good"

to be called a "good man" shouldn't I do "good" actions...
if I am violent, greedy, angry... how do I get from there
to being a "good" man? What private vices I have, cannot
make me a "good" man...and why is this any different
from our private vices creating a "public good"... in fact,
one could argue that capitalism is a justification for
human beings to be greedy, violent, to lie, to steal..
the private vices that supposedly creates a "public good"

so let us return to the problem at hand... how does
the private vice of stealing/shoplifting create a public good?
how does the private vice of stealing/shoplifting create
a "good" man? I don't see a road that leads me from
one to the other....private vices leads us to being
an immoral, "bad" person...and how does that create
a public good? to prevent shoplifting or stealing,
what is needed is another vision of what it means
to be human... private vices don't lead us to being a "good"
person and private vices don't lead us to having a
"moral society/state" where stealing no longer happens...

so the beginning understanding is that only by ''good"
actions can we begin to see ourselves as "good" people
or belonging in "good" society/state...there is no argument
available to us that allows us to think that stealing/shoplifting
can lead us to being "good" people or a "good" society/state....

so the solution to stealing/shoplifting begins with us, all of us....
we must begin to think about what is being a "good person" means..
and that being a "good person" then allows us to think about
turning our society/state into a "good society/state"
to have one, requires the other... only in "good actions'
can we be a "good society/state"...

the beginning of our reevaluation of our morals leads us
to this new understanding that only by ''good actions"
can we create a "good society/state" and what does that mean?

if you want a good society/state, you yourself must begin that process
by an engagement with being good or having good actions/morals...

the path a moral/just society/state begins with us... are your
actions moral? Are your beliefs upon which you act upon,
are they "good" or are they some more private vices?

now one might say, if I examine my beliefs and go from
an engagement with vices to being good, I am left
on a island where I am the only person there...
but how else do we begin? can I make you become more
"moral", to help you to have less "vices?"
I don't see how that work either... I can't make you do shit...
and you can't make me do shit either, now what?

No, the path to a "moral" just society/state begins with us
and our reevaluation of values...and the realization that
our issues of crime, violence, stealing/shoplifting stems
from our own beliefs that our private vices only creates
public vices... and solves nothing as to our social/political
problems....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

we don't have justice in this country anymore

And then there are those who undermine the systems and institutions of a society.

The economic systems, the legal systems and political systems are presented as unfair, exploitive, abusive, corrupt, ...

K: and we see this "unfair, exploitive, abusive, corrupt'' system
all the time... we see it in the preferential treatment of IQ45 in
regards to his lying, stealing, thefts... and we see it in how
the wealthy, powerful, titled people are treated differently...
see Elizabeth Holmes.. for an example of the wealthy being
treated differently.. she was convicted of fraud charges
in 2018 and yet, she still hasn't gone to prison...
as an average person, would I get the same treatment?
you and I both know the answer to that....

she is going to prison at the end of this month, but after she
has lost a great deal of her wealth...

the fact is that justice delayed is justice denied... anybody
with wealth or a title or power who can delay justice is
denying justice...

so what is the "cure" for this? I say, one possibility is the
fact that we no longer treat the wealthy, powerful, connected
differently... just as IQ45 was treated differently...
to treat one differently based on such factors as wealth,
power, connections, family or title is wrong... and unjust..
but it is accepted in America...
and hence part of the reason that many believe that
stealing/ shoplifting is ok... for in justice being denied to
one by wealth/title/power encourages and enables others to
steal/shoplift.... if they aren't held accountable, why should we be?

Kropotkin

[phyllo]

only in "good actions'
can we be a "good society/state"...

After tearing down ethics as "ad hoc", subjective, relative ...

Shift to some sort of objective "good" and objective "vice" .

[Peter Kropotkin]

if people are being treated differently, then what
is my incentive to be "good?" if justice isn't being applied
the same, then what is my incentive to be a "good" person?

the answer to the problem of stealing/shoplifting isn't
making tougher laws or anti-theft devices... but in
reworking our thinking about what is the "right" thing to do...
the path to the creation of a "good" society lies in the
creation of "good' people... and we must think in terms
of the larger picture if we want to end many of our problems...

no longer will "ad hoc" solutions be able to solve our problems
because "ad hoc" solutions don't address the entire problem
which is the entire society/state problems... to wit..

how do we create "good" people which leads
to us becoming more of a "good" state/society?

one such solution begins with the reduction of capitalism within
the U.S or even the world....... to make us engage with each
other on a public level, not on a local level.... so, that we aren't
engaged with private vices which somehow leads us to a public good...
that become the value of a socialism or communistic system...
we become more about our public values and less about
our private values...to think of the many before
we think about the few or the one..... to remove
private vices from our thinking.... that those private vices
actually have some public benefits.. they don't....

private vices leads us to a immoral, vice ridden
society/state.... vices cannot lead us to the good,
only the good can lead us to the public good..

Kropotkin

[phyllo]

no longer will "ad hoc" solutions be able to solve our problems
because "ad hoc" solutions don't address the entire problem
which is the entire society/state problems... to wit..

You have consistently characterized thousands of years of ethics as "ad hoc".

Now suddenly ethics isn't going to be "ad hoc"???

that become the value of a socialism or communistic system...

Socialist and communist societies are just as unfair, unjust, corrupt as capitalist societies. (If not more so, depending on the exact time and place.)

[Peter Kropotkin]

and only now can we approach the question
of values being subjective and/ or objective....

morality has had, until recently, say beginning with about
1850, morality has had a religious context... we are moral
by following the laws/rules of a god/or religion.....

but as noted by Nietzsche, this sort of public value
only works if we actually believe in god/religion...
and again, as he noted, god is dead.. and we have
killed him....

given this loss, how are we to justify ethics/morality?
on what grounds do we base our ethics/morality on?

the fact is the public morality/ethics has always been subjective...
the Greeks had different moral/ethical values than the Romans..
and each had different values then the Aztecs or the Chinese...
how are we to understand which moral/ethical system is
actually, the best one to follow?

every single moral/ethical system, so far, by its very nature, subjective,
individual... we don't have any type of objective moral/ethical system
in place, not today and not in any society/state in existence so far....

morality is subjective... and that bottom line creates for us,
many difficulties.... on what standard can we create a
morality/ethical system? what will be our "base" for the creation
of ethical/moral values? life, god, nation, society, private vices,
lying? we have many possibilities, but very few good possibilities....

the fact that ethics/morals are subjective create many difficulties
for us....

and how may we get around such a powerful argument?

Kropotkin