Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

[Iwannaplato]

I am not sure what the problem with Compatibilism is for you.

As I say up thread: when I was an atheist and materialist, I was a compatibilist. It worked for me...until it didn't.

That's the history, but what's the problem. It seems like your desires, needs, knowledge goal and temperment would lead you to do X. You would choose X in that moment. You wouldn't choose something else because that wouldn't be your choice. It'd be going against your desires or needs etc. I don't see how that's not compatiblism. What's going to happen will happen and you choose your part in that.

[Belinda]

Personality is caused by biological inheritance plus cultural conditioning.

PLUS the choice of the individual!

Is it a mere coincidence that you left out the most crucial and necessary ingredient?!

The act of choosing is not mysterious. We are caused by our personalities and circumstances to choose this or that course of action.

[Wizard22]

The act of choosing is not mysterious. We are caused by our personalities and circumstances to choose this or that course of action.

It clearly is a mystery to people when they're not self-aware and self-conscious of the choices they're making!

It seems, to them, as-if their choices are 'determined', coming from some 'external' source, outside of one's body...emanating from God-Himself perhaps.

Hence why you and the others are 'Determinists'. You don't understand the Choices that you make.

[Belinda]

The act of choosing is not mysterious. We are caused by our personalities and circumstances to choose this or that course of action.

It clearly is a mystery to people when they're not self-aware and self-conscious of the choices they're making!

It seems, to them, as-if their choices are 'determined', coming from some 'external' source, outside of one's body...emanating from God-Himself perhaps.

Hence why you and the others are 'Determinists'. You don't understand the Choices that you make.

Insight into one's own choices opens a greater array of options to account for why he or she made the choice she made: this is one of the activities of people who undergo psychoanalysis, to gain insight. When I understand my own prejudices and preferences I am that more free to make a wise choice.

[Wizard22]

I'll give you a personal insight.

It wasn't until much later in my mature life, that my brain started connecting sub-conscious and sublimated reasons and causes for why I did most of the things I did when I was younger. But memories have a strange way of 'connecting the dots' if you allow them.

The sad part of this point, is that most people are NOT self-conscious nor self-aware. Self-consciousness is a small minority of the human population. Thus, it makes sense why most people would not believe in free-will, or will as directed from external sources (like a domineering parent micro-managing every second of their young child's life). There's a balance missing in these people, through lack of ability, lacking of parenting, etc.

That doesn't mean that, in their ignorance, free-will is denied to the "upper (maybe) 5%" of humanity.


Maybe it's a "privilege" that most people will never experience in life.

This forum surely, certainly, proves the point.

[henry quirk]

As I say: a man is morally responsible for himself. If he does wrong: it's his wrong and the consequences are his to bear. That's not, however, sayin' he's a bad man. He may in fact be a bad man, but it's not a given.

[henry quirk]

Regardless, I disagree with any notion of free-will "as long as it's also determined".

Yes, it's not sensible.

[henry quirk]

But you get the issue: why wouldn't you be true to your desires, motives, character and knowledge? What other thing would cause you not to do what you would always have done?

I get it, I agree (as a deist, for example, I have no interest attending a satanic Black Mass...I could, but why would I?).

[henry quirk]

I don't see how that's not compatibilism

As I say...

If I were a materialist, you'd be right. My problem then, of course, would be avoiding promissory materialism. But wait! I've already been down that road! I was a materialist and a compatibilist. It was confronting promissory materialism (among other things) that moved me from materialism, compatibilism, and atheism to a kind of dualism/hylomorphism, libertarian free will, and deism.

[popeye1945]

One thing I have noticed about many criminals not biologically determined/not psychopaths, viewing their history and the horrendous crime/s they are guilty of. Many have had such wretched lives starting from birth, that in the process of being treated inhumanly all their lives, they have lost their humanity. Some of these people even prefer life inside prison to life outside prison. To believe in free will to the extent that one does not consider the environmental context of children, adolescents, and or adults is criminal in itself. It is simple, I suppose that is its appeal.

[henry quirk]

I've never said there weren't historical influences. What I reject is the idea of historical determiners.

[popeye1945]

I've never said there weren't historical influences. What I reject is the idea of historical determiners.

A compound cause is an influencer. Context defines, if you cannot choose your context, you cannot determine your own destiny. Misfortune builds upon misfortune, as success builds upon success.

[Iwannaplato]

I don't see how that's not compatibilism

As I say...

If I were a materialist, you'd be right. My problem then, of course, would be avoiding promissory materialism. But wait! I've already been down that road! I was a materialist and a compatibilist. It was confronting promissory materialism (among other things) that moved me from materialism, compatibilism, and atheism to a kind of dualism/hylomorphism, libertarian free will, and deism.

I don't think one has to be a materialist to be a compatibilist.
I think materialism is a meaningless term, which comes from a different critique of materialism than noting the promisorry issue.

[henry quirk]

"I don't think one has to be a materialist to be a compatibilist."

Seems to me to be a requisite (unless your countin' calvinists).

[henry quirk]

"A compound cause is an influencer. Context defines, if you cannot choose your context, you cannot determine your own destiny. Misfortune builds upon misfortune, as success builds upon success."