Freeing of the Will

[Wizard22]

But you wouldn't give a definition. In fact, you said it wasn't possible. I must say, for one who believes that achieving the impossible is just a matter of freeing the will, you must not have been trying very hard to free yours.

There is nothing that is impossible. What you call 'impossible' are just your subjective limits to life and existence. But your limits, are your own.

Impossible is undefined for me.

Let me put your mind at rest: I wouldn't dream of taking one of your threads as a guide and reference to life and reality.

The thread is early yet. I expect your mind will change soon enough.

[Wizard22]

Perhaps if you ever getting around to explaining your justification for whatever your version of free will or freedom is, then I can help on that issue. So far in our exchange I haven't seen it. If you have done it elsewhere, link me to the post(s). No need for you to repeat it. You keep talking about our free will. Could you define it and justify that it exists.

Perhaps you missed my explanation in the previous thread:

viewtopic.php?p=637063

You could start by describing what you mean by free will. Libertarian free will? Compatibilist free will?

How do you think you could prove free will?

Does freedom exist? Is one creature or organism 'freer' than another? A chicken can't fly so well. A hawk, duck, sparrow, can fly much better by comparison. A hawk is 'freer' to fly. The hawk will perceive a human, unable to fly, as less free. So freedom is relative to Ability. But a hawk, and a human, cannot swim as freely as a fish, a dolphin, a shark. Again this is another point to remark the general relativity of Freedom.

Free is measured by Ability.

What is will(power)? Through the course of this thread, what people 'will' do is driven first by Need and second by Want. Thus most people agree that being hungry, and willing to eat, is not a "Choice" in the conventional sense. But what you Want to eat, is a choice. Thus Willpower defaults to the Secondary wants, not the Primary needs. This is where 'Determinists' get caught up on the details. Determinists are focused on "Needs". Free-Willists are often focused on the "Wants", pertaining to Will.

How do you measure a person's Willpower? Assume there's a snow storm, a blizzard, that you must travel through. Person A will give up at the first sign of discomfort or trouble, turn around and go home. Person B will trudge along much deeper, maybe even going so far that he or she may die in the snow storm. This is where Free-Will is poignant. Person B has a choice, continue further, or turn around. Person C, has great willpower, and will not give up under any condition, risking death doesn't even cross his or her mind. Person C has the most Willpower, the most Will, the most 'umph!' in terms of progression. Perhaps they all survive. Perhaps none of them do.


Since Freedom exists, and since Willpower exists, Free-Will must exist by definition and extension of these terms.

Any disagreement then, is a disagreement of framing the definitions.

In order for a Determinist to "get rid of" Free-Will, you'd need to cancel ALL freedom and cancel ALL willpower. Since this is impossible, Determinism is an illogical, and irrational category of thought. It's not based on reality.

[Harbal]

But you wouldn't give a definition. In fact, you said it wasn't possible. I must say, for one who believes that achieving the impossible is just a matter of freeing the will, you must not have been trying very hard to free yours.

There is nothing that is impossible. What you call 'impossible' are just your subjective limits to life and existence. But your limits, are your own.

Impossible is undefined for me.

You can refuse to accept the commonly acknowledged meanings of words, if you like, but don't expect to have a meaningful conversation if you do.

Let me put your mind at rest: I wouldn't dream of taking one of your threads as a guide and reference to life and reality.

The thread is early yet. I expect your mind will change soon enough.

Really? What do you imagine will change it?

[Wizard22]

I just see vague abstractions. For all I know you sit in apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I don't even know what you think soaring is.

This is the crux of the argument though.

Let's assume I sit in an apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I am like the prisoner in the jail cell. The door is unlocked, but can I think to press it open? Or the thought never occurs to me.

What then is Freedom dependent on???


How does the prisoner "release" himself? How does the prisoner "soar"?

Can you give some examples of some of the ways you've done some impossible things, or even just some things you consider show you prioritize freedom more than determinists or other people?

I tried to consider what is impossible once.

EDIT: link fix

[Wizard22]

You can refuse to accept the commonly acknowledged meanings of words, if you like, but don't expect to have a meaningful conversation if you do.

Meaning grows and retracts, same as human understanding of science and biology. Humanity starts with primitive, simple understandings and definition. Canine, wolf, dog, a furry mammal walking on four legs with a long snout, sharp teeth, carnivore. Simple definition. Is this sufficient? Maybe for you, it is. Maybe the Dictionary is enough for you.

But the Dictionary is not enough for the Biologist, who goes out into Nature, studies species, Genus, observes, reports, collects data, etc. His definitions are expansive. They are superior. They are far better than the dictionary.

I presume you agree...but it's hard to tell at this point.

Really? What do you imagine will change it?

It's my experience with philosophy forums that people enjoy having their expectations defied. I can show you by example, to think outside 'your box'.

[Harbal]

Let's assume I sit in an apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I am like the prisoner in the jail cell. The door is unlocked, but can I think to press it open?

Why bother with the door? Just walk through the wall.

How does the prisoner "release" himself? How does the prisoner "soar"?

There's nothing to prevent him from spontaneously levitating, according to your theory.

[Wizard22]

Why bother with the door? Just walk through the wall.

And why even leave the room? Except to prove a point to you and IWP about freedom? Do I really need to leave the prison cell to do that?

There's nothing to prevent him from spontaneously levitating, according to your theory.

Levitating helps, would you then believe in free-will if a person could levitate?

Is that the limit? Or, in a post-levitation world, would everybody then move the goal posts and continue denying free-will?

[Wizard22]

The year is 3023AD.

Everybody is levitating.

And everybody is still debating whether Free-Will exists.

So what actual, physical limit is required, to put the debate to rest forever? Or it's immortal, because the moving-the-goalpost logical fallacy is the first and favorite of all time? And there is literally never enough to prove the Cynics (aka. Determinists) wrong?

[Wizard22]

The year is 3024AD.

God descends from the Heavens and arrives in Person to challenge all doubters.

The Doubter demands God demonstrate a series of miracles. Change time, change the Past. So God changes the Past. Turn man into woman, woman into man. God changes man into woman, woman into man. Show me a square-circle. God shows the Doubter a square-circle.



For a short while, the Doubter thinks and thinks, he imagines to himself a new challenge to God. God gives him some time to dwell and meditate on the matter...

What is freedom, except this defiance against God?

Is it anything more than this, a compulsion to challenge presumed Absolute Authority???

[Harbal]

You can refuse to accept the commonly acknowledged meanings of words, if you like, but don't expect to have a meaningful conversation if you do.

Meaning grows and retracts, same as human understanding of science and biology. Humanity starts with primitive, simple understandings and definition. Canine, wolf, dog, a furry mammal walking on four legs with a long snout, sharp teeth, carnivore. Simple definition. Is this sufficient? Maybe for you, it is. Maybe the Dictionary is enough for you.

But the Dictionary is not enough for the Biologist, who goes out into Nature, studies species, Genus, observes, reports, collects data, etc. His definitions are expansive. They are superior. They are far better than the dictionary.

I presume you agree...but it's hard to tell at this point.

Your lack of intelligence is quite astonishing.

Really? What do you imagine will change it?

It's my experience with philosophy forums that people enjoy having their expectations defied.

In your case, I am quite enjoying having my expectations confirmed.

I can show you by example, to think outside 'your box'.

And I can imagine what such an example would look like:

istockphoto-456742535-612x612.jpg

[Dontaskme]

What do you mean by implying there is a 'someone' who is afraid of Freeing their will? ...Surely there's just what's happening at any given moment in time in this immediate unconditioned freedom to be.

''Unconditioned'' simply meaning, free to make a choice, free to do action, free to will anything to happen via the intention to do so.
To intentionally cause an effect by being unconditionally free to do so.

Isn't every 'intention' or 'action' the rider of the will to perform a cause and it's effect, that can't ever be anything other than it's consequential outcome in this unconditional immediate present moment of happening?

So I don't understand what you mean by saying ''Freeing their will''

For me personally as I understand the word FREE.. is to mean unconditional, else the word FREE is meaningless.
As far as I understand FREE. Reality was never free because reality is never bound.

Consider the constraints of 99.9% of people.

As infants, as small children, as young adolescents, etc. all humans are indoctrinated into social systems of behavior. They are taught what is 'right' or 'wrong', legal or illegal, good or evil or bad. They are expected to follow these social norms. Some of this is metaphysical. It's not only about what these children can NOT do, what they MUST NOT do, but also what they must NOT THINK. So this level of indoctrination is very powerful, very persuasive. All people recognize this, on a subconscious level if not a conscious level. That's how indoctrination works. It's better, more effective, if the masses don't realize they're being brainwashed, convinced, persuaded, moved, lied to, etc.

So when I talk about "free-will", people believe they are NOT free, by how their indoctrination and "education" educated them to be, and what to believe. This is their Moral basis.

Why are people scared? Because, if they confronted these "common sense" truths, truisms, social conditioning, then what would that then mean? It would mean that: they could not trust their parents, their peers, their teachers, their extended family, their state, their GOD. That's scary.

That's why they're scared by the idea (of freedom, of free-will).

Thanks for your reply in response to my query.

So it seems we are scared to use the freedom of our free will because we are so deeply buried in our indoctrination which is all we have ever been taught to believe is the way to live our lives?
It seems we are scared to break the mold of societies norms which are often restrictive. Is that right?

Is this indoctrinating behaviour all about APPROVAL?

Do people seek the approval of other people in order to feel intergrated into a world in which they have been born?
And do people only really LOVE us when we are meeting with a certain agreed upon criterion as to be in the world.
Do people expect other people to be a perfect fit and match, else they will fail to live up to what is expected of them.
Are people inclined to judge others that are not accepted as satisfactory in terms of approval..
In other words, is human life all about approval, so to speak. Is that the world we are born into? a world that is obsessed with approval, and how dare anyone be different or break the mold, or be defiant, to condemn or disapprove?


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[Iwannaplato]

Since Freedom exists, and since Willpower exists, Free-Will must exist by definition and extension of these terms.

What you demonstrated is that the term free will could be used in the way you describe. It does not demonstrate that determinists are incorrect.

1) first just because you come up with a good argument, and you did, for how 'free will' could be defined as you did, does not mean that's what determinists are arguing against. A company has a softball team and they have red uniforms. You hear the CEO wants to create a red team and you tell people that's idiotic, we've already got one. But the term has a different meaning.
2) A determinist could agree with everything you say AND still maintain that nothing else could have happened. You woke up and chose eggs instead of cereal, but that your genetics, plus mood, etc. all led to you that morning making the only choice you were ever going to make that morning. Now, given how you've posted here might say, fine prove that I might not have chosen cereal. But here's the problem: what would lead you to choose one over the other, to have that preference? What leads to it? A determinist can point to causes, including your likes and mood. What do you point to that led to the choice?
3) Further you have said, or implied that animals do not have free will - see your OP. Why not? They make choices, and some animals have far greater will than others. And many animals have free time, many of the social mammals. They do not have to spend all their time defending themselves or finding food. They play, socialize, groom, have sex for fun, masturbate. And they do different things on different days. Thus, they make choices, and some have greater wills. How do you know they don't have free will?

[Wizard22]

Your lack of intelligence is quite astonishing.

istockphoto-456742535-612x612.jpg

Yes it seems I presumed too much about you.

At least you are good for a small annoyance and distraction.

[Iwannaplato]

I just see vague abstractions. For all I know you sit in apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I don't even know what you think soaring is.

This is the crux of the argument though.

Let's assume I sit in an apartment, work a shit job, have no social life, have never tried anything.

I am like the prisoner in the jail cell. The door is unlocked, but can I think to press it open? Or the thought never occurs to me.

What then is Freedom dependent on???

How does the prisoner "release" himself? How does the prisoner "soar"?

Again, asking me to answer your questions is not you explaining what you mean. And this is now after 4 responses.

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

Why unnecessarily stunt and retard the Human Spirit? Why clip our wings? Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

Why measure Humanity from the base, from the Animal, instead of from the Apex? Why choose lowly Gods, instead of high Ones?

If your greatest Ideal in life is to remain Human, rolling around in the mud like a pig, then how is Human any different than an Animal?

So, what is it that demonstrates one is and you are a person who soars or, as you say elsewhere, someone who strives for the impossible and accomplishes it?

One time you brought up the prisoner example you assumed that the door was actually open and the person never tested it. Well, raccoons and dogs and cats will test their literal cages all the time. Some of them and not others.

Is that it, that one has a rich fantasy life?

Lay out your answer.

Determinists it seems to you cannot soar merely because they are determinists. What is it you've done that you think determinists don't do that shows your soaring?

Is the answer that you think you are free?

Wow. So, you get to sit around in your comfort and do nothing without actually accomplishing something and that's you soaring, while determinists do and don't do the full range of possible things - some a lazy, some accept authority, some don't, some accomplish amazing things at great odds, others live mediocre lives like most people who believe in free will.

You had a thought. Is that your soaring?

(your link to impossible you've tried did not work for me)

[Wizard22]

Thanks for your reply in response to my query.

So it seems we are scared to use the freedom of our free will because we are so deeply buried in our indoctrination which is all we have ever been taught to believe is the way to live our lives?
It seems we are scared to break the mold of societies norms which are often restrictive. Is that right?

Is this indoctrinating behaviour all about APPROVAL?

Mostly, yes.

There is very little tolerance for radical rejection of societal norms. Eventually it leads to criminalization or outright repulsion from society. Or worse, animosity and death.

For example, imagine you are born into a cult of Jehova Witnesses. Or an Amish community. Or fundamentalist Jewish Zionists in Israel. In any case, you would very much be held accountable to their moral system, their ethics, their religious beliefs. And if you strayed from...belief in God, then you would face a long list of social repercussions. You would not be free to question certain premises about reality. Because what is real, is also relative to a society, community, cult, culture, etc.

Do people seek the approval of other people in order to feel intergrated into a world in which they have been born?
And do people only really LOVE us when we are meeting with a certain agreed upon criterion as to be in the world.
Do people expect other people to be a perfect fit and match, else they will fail to live up to what is expected of them.
Are people inclined to judge others that are not accepted as satisfactory in terms of approval..
In other words, is human life all about approval, so to speak. Is that the world we are born into? a world that is obsessed with approval, and how dare anyone be different or break the mold, or be defiant, to condemn or disapprove?


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It's not everything, but it is a lot. In regard to the context of this thread, it definitely applies to what any perspective believes about free-will. It definitely is an important factor, and crucial to understand why and how a person believes themselves 'free' or not, relative to unspoken standards.