Does the "Free Will" point of view affect morals and character?

[popeye1945]

That's not what I mean at all. Reaction to a cause or a set of circumstances is deterministic. Please let me have another go!

Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (Fws) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators like what God is.

Do you think that this "we can originate events" idea is coherent?

Note that I'm not asking you if you think it's true. I'm more asking you, can you imagine the world being in a particular way where it could be true?

Or, alternatively, is it nonsense, logically impossible, there's no possible world where this is the case?

Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, original, ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.

That is the egocentric part of belief in free will, our ancestors wanted to feel superior to their cousins, and thus alienate themselves from nature. It is, from my perspective, a cognitive disability we have inherited over the eons. We are at present, a most unhealthy part of the physical world.

[henry quirk]

*Free Willies don't recognise the implications of men as originators of events. **God or nature is the only originator of events.

What implications don't I recognize?

**Sez who?

Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (FWs) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators of subsequent events, like what God is.

No, this isn't what I believe.

I believe I am, like God, a point of creative/causal power (a free will). This makes me like God (*created in His image); it does not make me a God.

As for nature: it causes nuthin'. It, nature, is just the unremitting cluster of causal chains we call Reality or universe. It's a mechanism or is mechanistic. Blind forces and dumb matter.

God Creates; man creates. God Causes; man causes.

Nature does neither.




*borrowed from my Christian friends

[Flannel Jesus]

Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, origination,ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

[Belinda]

Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, origination,ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

[Flannel Jesus]

Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, origination,ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

"Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true."

"There is no such ability."

I must say I'm a little bit confused. You said you can think of how it could be possible, but when requested to detail how it might be possible, your response it that there is no such ability. I of course agree that there is no such thing as libertarian free will in reality, but that's not what I'm asking you

[henry quirk]

Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, origination,ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

Or: the reality of free will (of being a free will) can lead one to the reality of a Creator (who doesn't intervene).

[popeye1945]

*Free Willies don't recognise the implications of men as originators of events. **God or nature is the only originator of events.

What implications don't I recognize?

**Sez who?

Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (FWs) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators of subsequent events, like what God is.

No, this isn't what I believe.

I believe I am, like God, a point of creative/causal power (a free will). This makes me like God (*created in His image); it does not make me a God.

As for nature: it causes nuthin'. It, nature, is just the unremitting cluster of causal chains we call Reality or universe. It's a mechanism or is mechanistic. Blind forces and dumb matter.

God Creates; man creates. God Causes; man causes.

Nature does neither.




*borrowed from my Christian friends

Personally, I would not consider the source of our free will or lack thereof, dependent upon a fictional character unless your concept of god is of nature. How do we as reactionary creatures function in the real world? Are we governed by the powers of the earth or are we masters of the earth?
How can one be free when our intentions are dependent upon the functioning of the brain/mind which we are unaware of, do not understand nor control, and since we do not know what our next thought is going to be? God is a fictional character with a similar foundation for belief as one's belief in Batman. Welcome to Gotham City on a planet far far away.

[Belinda]

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

Or: the reality of free will (of being a free will) can lead one to the reality of a Creator (who doesn't intervene).

That's deism, Henry , as I think you know.

Deism is pantheism by another name. The way to stay friends with Christian friends is love them without loving their Top Man.

[popeye1945]

*Free Willies don't recognise the implications of men as originators of events. **God or nature is the only originator of events.

What implications don't I recognize?

**Sez who?

Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (FWs) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators of subsequent events, like what God is.

No, this isn't what I believe.

I believe I am, like God, a point of creative/causal power (a free will). This makes me like God (*created in His image); it does not make me a God.

As for nature: it causes nuthin'. It, nature, is just the unremitting cluster of causal chains we call Reality or universe. It's a mechanism or is mechanistic. Blind forces and dumb matter.

God Creates; man creates. God Causes; man causes.

Nature does neither.




*borrowed from my Christian friends

Personally, I would not consider the source of our free will or lack thereof, dependent upon a fictional character unless your concept of god is of nature. How do we as reactionary creatures function in the real world? Are we governed by the powers of the earth or are we masters of the earth?
How can one be free when our intentions are dependent upon the functioning of the brain/mind which we are unaware of, do not understand nor control, and since we do not know what our next thought is going to be? God is a fictional character with a similar foundation for belief as one's belief in Batman. Welcome to Gotham City on a planet far far away. To the lions with them!!

[henry quirk]

That's deism, Henry , as I think you know.

Yep.

Deism is pantheism by another name.

Nope.

The way to stay friends with Christian friends is love them without loving their Top Man.

[popeye1945]

The earth is cause to all reactionary organisms including humanity, thus, if one must have a god, it should be the one that is the cause of our being and our behaviors in relation to it, the earth. Beings in general are for us outside ourselves, and all beings are a cause to all other beings. Part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts. There is no such thing as an independent existence, thus a difficult sell that a certain creature is the sole agent of free will. This is a violation of nature, born of ignorance and the seed of chaos. This should be more widely accepted as is the philosophical statement, subject and object stand or fall together. From Earth we arise and back into it we meld.

[Belinda]

In your imagination, then, what did that ability look like? How does it work? How does it manifest?

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

"Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true."

"There is no such ability."

I must say I'm a little bit confused. You said you can think of how it could be possible, but when requested to detail how it might be possible, your response it that there is no such ability. I of course agree that there is no such thing as libertarian free will in reality, but that's not what I'm asking you

I can picture Free Will only by analogies such as the picture of God on the Sistine Chapel ceiling, or more mundanely, the magic gland in the head that Descartes suggested as the seat of the mind.Or I might fantasise about Harry Potter and his magical ability to play quidditch.

[Flannel Jesus]

There is no such ability. That claim upholds the myth of the deity who can intervene in nature.

"Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true."

"There is no such ability."

I must say I'm a little bit confused. You said you can think of how it could be possible, but when requested to detail how it might be possible, your response it that there is no such ability. I of course agree that there is no such thing as libertarian free will in reality, but that's not what I'm asking you

I can picture Free Will only by analogies such as the picture of God on the Sistine Chapel ceiling, or more mundanely, the magic gland in the head that Descartes suggested as the seat of the mind.Or I might fantasise about Harry Potter and his magical ability to play quidditch.

Ah okay, so no tangible way of imagining what might be happening in a world that really had that sort of libertarian free will. Nothing like, say, "quantum randomness happening inside of neurons, making our behaviour have inherent unpredictability and indeterminism" or something along those lines.

That's fair, I can't imagine one either. I don't think the quantum randomness thing plays out in a free willish way, personally.

[Belinda]

Henry Quirk wrote:

As for nature: it causes nuthin'. It, nature, is just the unremitting cluster of causal chains we call Reality or universe. It's a mechanism or is mechanistic. Blind forces and dumb matter.

There is more to determinism than simple causal chains ! There are also causal circumstances such as a pandemic , or e.g. climate change, that cause a great many parallel events . There is also the law of death or entropy that is a self sufficient cause of just about everything we know of.

Nature, when philosophers speak of nature, is not only wildernesses, coral reefs, and furry animals; it's the great system of what is the case. In this philosophical sense nature is what you say it is. It does however cause all that happens to happen because nature is dynamic system: change itself.

As such, nature is very similar to God. The difference for theists is that the theists' God can intervene in nature, and has even empowered man to intervene at will.

[popeye1945]

Henry Quirk wrote:

As for nature: it causes nuthin'. It, nature, is just the unremitting cluster of causal chains we call Reality or universe. It's a mechanism or is mechanistic. Blind forces and dumb matter.

There is more to determinism than simple causal chains! There are also causal circumstances such as a pandemic, or e.g., climate change, that cause a great many parallel events. There is also the law of death or entropy that is a self-sufficient cause of just about everything we know of.

Nature, when philosophers speak of nature, is not only wildernesses, coral reefs, and furry animals; it's the great system of what is the case. In this philosophical sense nature is what you say it is. It does, however, cause all that happens to happen because nature is a dynamic system: change itself.

As such, nature is very similar to God. The difference for theists is that the theists' God can intervene in nature, and has even empowered man to intervene at will.

EXCELLENT---0!!